Ever +EV to fold KK in a cash game?

[OnTheRize]

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I just said in my last post, the situation's are very rare.

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Earlier you even went through the trouble of putting "never fold kings preflop" in bold. Now you admit that it can be right. It seems like your statements are not reliable. Maybe you should think it through before insulting anyone who disagrees with whatever you believe at the moment, and maybe you should apologize when you realize that you have insulted someone for being correct and informative.

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Well im sorry that you play with people so retarded that they push 5,000$ into a 60$ pot. Clearly im not playing KK in this situation.

[jay_shark]

Ontherize , just give it up .

You should never say never in poker , and so if you think it's "always" correct to call with pocket kings , then maybe you read the wrong poker books .

[OnTheRize]

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Ontherize , just give it up .

You should never say never in poker , and so if you think it's "always" correct to call with pocket kings , then maybe you read the wrong poker books .

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.01% of the time someone has aces and shoved 5,000 into a 60$ pot. 90 times the pot is not a play you see every day. More like, once a year.

[tmcdmck]

anyone who says you can never correctly fold kings preflop 100bbs deep is wrong. It is just so rarely correct that you might aswell not bother, as there is a high likelyhood that you will be incorrect too often for it to be better than never folding it. but people who say never in poker are generally foolish.

[Diana Ross Fan]

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I just said in my last post, the situation's are very rare.

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Earlier you even went through the trouble of putting "never fold kings preflop" in bold. Now you admit that it can be right. It seems like your statements are not reliable. Maybe you should think it through before insulting anyone who disagrees with whatever you believe at the moment, and maybe you should apologize when you realize that you have insulted someone for being correct and informative.

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Well im sorry that you play with people so retarded that they push 5,000$ into a 60$ pot. Clearly im not playing KK in this situation.

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I wouldn't fold it. If someone makes a bet this retarded then there is no reason to give them credit for aces. I think both times that I have seen someone open with a shvoe at a 1/2 table, they have AK.

[Unknown Soldier]

no, folding is never +EV. you mean correct? yes of course. If you think the guys range is KK+ then fold.

/thread

[br.bm]

folding is always 0EV (you never win anything by folding, but you never loose anything either)

here are some numbers
Make up a different scenario (villian raise, I reraise to 20BB, he pushes) and you have to be very sure he does push w/ QQ, AK, AQ etc to make a call +EV
And in the NL50, NL100 FR games of fulltilt I never saw someone 4bet 100BB all in vs a 100BB stack with AQ or QQ. Even AK is very very rare.

[RarocASP]

I've only been sure enough to fold KK preflop once live. Folded face up and villan showed AA. Table erupted with "OOHHHHH!!!!! WHAT A READ!!!!"

That was the day I knew I was The King of 2/4 limit at the Taj.

[Pokerfarian]

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folding is always 0EV (you never win anything by folding, but you never loose anything either)

here are some numbers
Make up a different scenario (villian raise, I reraise to 20BB, he pushes) and you have to be very sure he does push w/ QQ, AK, AQ etc to make a call +EV
And in the NL50, NL100 FR games of fulltilt I never saw someone 4bet 100BB all in vs a 100BB stack with AQ or QQ. Even AK is very very rare.

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This post is coming dangerously close to suggesting you can fold KK 100BB deep in a typical 50NL online game against 1 opponent...so I feel the need to say that is completely wrong & you'll give up lots of equity when you do it

[pzhon]

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folding is always 0EV (you never win anything by folding, but you never loose anything either)

here are some numbers

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That analysis was bad. Why not make the previous raise to 99 BB, and then incorrectly conclude that you can't fold AK when you see that your opponent has AA?

As I stated earlier in this thread, "One common misconception is that you have to be very sure that you are up against AA in order to fold. In fact, AA is more of a favorite over KK than KK is a favorite over {QQ-KK, AK}, so if the push was a big overbet, even a 50% chance that you are up against AA instead of {QQ-KK, AK} means you should fold. "

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Make up a different scenario (villian raise, I reraise to 20BB, he pushes) and you have to be very sure he does push w/ QQ, AK, AQ etc to make a call +EV
And in the NL50, NL100 FR games of fulltilt I never saw someone 4bet 100BB all in vs a 100BB stack with AQ or QQ. Even AK is very very rare.

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Right. If the push is not a 1/2 pot raise, you don't need to be 92% sure your opponent has AA to fold KK. If the push is twice the pot, you need to win 40% to call. If you assume you are an 80-20 underdog when you are behind, and a 75-25 favorite when you are not, then you are really getting (75-40)40-20) = 7:4 odds. In that situation, a 7/11 ~ 64% chance that your opponent has AA means you should fold.

It's not hard to find examples where someone pushes with AA with a full stack at NL $100. To call with KK when the push is an overbet, you need to find many examples where someone pushes all-in (not calls all-in) at that level with QQ or worse in a comparable situation to the one where you are considering calling. I've seen these often at NL $25 where people don't know what a strong hand is, and at NL $1000 where 3-bets mean less, but they arene't as common in NL $100 where the players are passive and often know that 3-bets mean a lot. Blind versus blind, or when a short stack or maniac is in the hand, may be a clear call. When you reraise an early position raise and a non-maniac pushes may be a clear fold.