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  #1  
Old 11-16-2007, 07:30 AM
TimovieMan TimovieMan is offline
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Default KK when an ace flops and I get bet into

I’m new to the table, and I get to pick a seat where the two players to my immediate left are weak-tight, and the 2nd and 3rd player on my right are fishy. YAAAAAY!
Rest of the table, however, are unknowns (this includes MP3).

First hand in, I just posted in the CO, and I get dealt cowboys! LOTERIA! My eyes turn into $-signs… [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Action goes:

Preflop: hero is in the CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
3 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="red">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="red">Hero 3-bets</font>, 5 folds, <font color="red">MP3 caps</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="red">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="red">Hero ?????</font>

The dreaded ace fell and I get bet into by the unknown that capped preflop…

Should I fear his pocket aces, or his AK, or should I be value-raising his KK or QQ or whatever else he decided to cap with?

I can think of several good reasons why folding is good, why calling all the way to showdown is good, and why raising is good…
But what’s the standard line in a situation like this? The WA/WB approach?
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  #2  
Old 11-16-2007, 07:47 AM
OziBattler OziBattler is offline
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Default Re: KK when an ace flops and I get bet into

what stakes, what site?

[ QUOTE ]
I can think of several good reasons why folding is good

[/ QUOTE ]

well your getting about 15.5:1 less rake (if i can add correctly) so do you still like your reasons v ur range?

dont flop the flop. i raise. this is QQ/JJ often enough to be profitable.
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  #3  
Old 11-16-2007, 07:52 AM
neurotiq neurotiq is offline
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Default Re: KK when an ace flops and I get bet into

I'd probably call down. There are 3 combos of AA remaining and 12 combos of AK remaining (15 combos you lose to). There are 6 combos of QQ and 6 combos of JJ (12 combos you win to). There's only 1 combo of KK remaining for the chop.

Thus, EV of calling down is 12/28 * 6.25 - 15/28 * 4.5 + 1/28 * 0 = 0.27 BB

[Well, technically, it would be 0.27 BB - 13/28 * rake]

EV of folding is -2 BB (the money we've already invested)

So, it looks like this hand is worth calling down...

(Someone more math-inclined than me, feel free to correct any errors in my math [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])

EDIT: Above calculation does not take into account the possibility of our set outs or our remote possibility of a BDSD, nor does it take into account villain's odds of improving. I also am not taking into account the possibility of villain being a lunatic and capping with 22 or some other nonsense.

EDIT AGAIN: Forgot to include blinds in original calculation. EV of calling down is positive once I've included them.
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  #4  
Old 11-16-2007, 07:58 AM
OziBattler OziBattler is offline
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Default Re: KK when an ace flops and I get bet into

neuro, honestly I need more info to come up with a hand range.....AK, AA-JJ is too narrow for unknown at typical micro stakes IMO unless this is some nitty crypto 1/2 game or something.
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  #5  
Old 11-16-2007, 08:05 AM
TimovieMan TimovieMan is offline
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Default Re: KK when an ace flops and I get bet into

Sorry about omitting the limit, it was .50/1.00 at PokerRoom (where all the tighties are, apparently, good table selection is hell there)...
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  #6  
Old 11-16-2007, 08:12 AM
TimovieMan TimovieMan is offline
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Default Re: KK when an ace flops and I get bet into

Personally in this situation I go into calldown-mode.

But if I'd raise the flop and get re-raised, what then? Do I fold or do I still call down?
And what if I raise, he calls and then donks the turn (given that's a rag)?
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  #7  
Old 11-16-2007, 08:26 AM
MattHH MattHH is offline
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Default Re: KK when an ace flops and I get bet into

I think that you would get a lot of information by seeing how he responds to your raise on the flop. If he just calls and doesn't bet the turn you have the option of taking a free card if he's a REALLY passive postflop player and may think this his top pair is behind. However, if he is a decently agressive player and he calls your flop raise and doesnt bet the turn, I would fire away (but fold to a check raise). If he 3-bets the flop, then I would fold. IDK, I'm sorta still a newb, but that's how I'd play it.
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  #8  
Old 11-16-2007, 08:43 AM
Sushiglutton Sushiglutton is offline
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Default Re: KK when an ace flops and I get bet into

Suppose his range is JJ+, AK. Let's say we iclude only 3*JJ (since most people don't cap it). Ur equity is still 47.3%. Therefor folding is out of the question. Raising sucks in general here. Only exception would be if we knew villain only 3-bet &gt;Ax AND he called down QQ-JJ. The best line by far agaisnt unknown/normal player is to call down IMO.
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  #9  
Old 11-16-2007, 08:47 AM
TimovieMan TimovieMan is offline
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Default Re: KK when an ace flops and I get bet into

MattHH, your line makes lots of sense.

Damn, I must be becoming weak-tight.
Most of the time I'm fearlessly betting and raising (and then get killed by slowplayers), but for some reason the kings and queens get me in calldown mode if an ace hits...

/makes mental note
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  #10  
Old 11-16-2007, 08:50 AM
Sushiglutton Sushiglutton is offline
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Default Re: KK when an ace flops and I get bet into

[ QUOTE ]
neuro, honestly I need more info to come up with a hand range.....AK, AA-JJ is too narrow for unknown at typical micro stakes IMO unless this is some nitty crypto 1/2 game or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

A wider range is probably bad for us since the first hands going in will be TT, AQs, AJs. Of course a very wide range would be better.

I don't get raising. I can't see a range we are +equity against. We risk losing QQ-JJ. If he 3-bets we should probably fold somewhere but it's risky against an unknown in a big pot.
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