15/30 Live - KQs in Hijack

[TMTTR]

Live 15/30 game, full table, generally loose.

EP is bad player. Will call way too often.

MP is better player, will raise/reraise with medium to big pairs, raise with big aces. But I don't believe he will cap the flop without a broadway pair (or possibly AKs).

Hero is Hijack with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Preflop: 2 Folds to EP, EP calls, 1 Fold, MP raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, folds back to EP, EP calls two cold, MP caps, Hero calls.

Flop (13.66SB): 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

EP checks, MP bets, hero calls, EP call.

Turn (8.33BB): T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

EP checks, MP bets, hero...

Comments on all streets appreciated...

[Howard Beale]

Well, I may be opening myself to ridicule around these parts, but I'll say it anyway. I'd fold pre-flop against MP as described and while I might call depending on what I, myself, thought of that player from actually being in the game I certainly don't think that 3-betting is the thing to do. What are you trying to accomplish? Get HU against a better hand? I think you need to hit the flop hard. If you flop one pair w/o strong draws and face aggression what do you do? I hate being in this position against this type of opponent and folding pre-flop avoids the whole mess.

From where you find yourself I'd raise the flop hoping to get to the river cheap and dropping EP and wouldn't be surprised when I got 3-bet by MP so that I could curse myself some more for getting involved in the first place.

Turn:

You're not thinking of raising are you? Just call and pray.

[benwood]

Howard Beale is right on in this one,imho.Pre-flop.if he he AA,KK,QQ,AK,or AQ,you are destroyed.And if he has JJ or a lower pocket pair,it's a toss-up.This is an awful place to "invest" your money.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

[ QUOTE ]
Howard Beale is right on in this one,imho.Pre-flop.if he he AA,KK,QQ,AK,or AQ,you are destroyed.And if he has JJ or a lower pocket pair,it's a toss-up.This is an awful place to "invest" your money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ive never folded KQs in this spot in my life. I coldcall like its my job. If coldcalling is wrong, I dont wanna be right.

Given that you did 3bet preflop. I think you should fold the flop. I know youre getting 15-1 to call the flop bet, but I would give your pair outs an average of 1 pure out here, and your backdoor flush accounts for approx 1 pure out, so with 2 pure outs getting 15-1 not closing the action, I would fold.

About the turn: Since you have to atleast call a turn bet, you are getting 10-1 odds on a semibluff raise. So if you believe the MP will have AK and fold to your turn raise and the EP will also fold to your turn raise, more than 9.1% of the time. Then raising would be better than calling. I would also like to point out that you should adjust that percentage upwards somewhat cuz I did not account for those times you get 3bet on the turn.

Will a turn raise allow you to win this pot often enough to make this semibluff profitable. I highly doubt it, so just call the turn and pray the poker gods favor you on the river.

[brettbrettr]

You raised the turn, rivered good, got paid off, got berated.

[ssmallz]

[ QUOTE ]
Ive never folded KQs in this spot in my life. I coldcall like its my job. If coldcalling is wrong, I dont wanna be right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you want to cold call here? That seems like the worst of 3 options to me. If you've got some bad players who are likely to cold call behind you I understand it but in this situation, theres only 2 people in the pot and one of them is the pfr.

As already commented on by another poster, his hand range has you killed w/KQs and your very likely to make a second best hand that you need to pay off on the river. The reason I like 3 balling pf more than cold calling is that you can take control of the hand. He's more likely to have 2 big cards than a big pair so if the flop misses you both, you can fold him out on the flop or turn.

Folding > 3 ballin > cold callin

[ILOVEPOKER929]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ive never folded KQs in this spot in my life. I coldcall like its my job. If coldcalling is wrong, I dont wanna be right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you want to cold call here? That seems like the worst of 3 options to me. If you've got some bad players who are likely to cold call behind you I understand it but in this situation, theres only 2 people in the pot and one of them is the pfr.

As already commented on by another poster, his hand range has you killed w/KQs and your very likely to make a second best hand that you need to pay off on the river. The reason I like 3 balling pf more than cold calling is that you can take control of the hand. He's more likely to have 2 big cards than a big pair so if the flop misses you both, you can fold him out on the flop or turn.

Folding > 3 ballin > cold callin

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait a second. Just so others dont get confused. Im not saying that coldcalling with KQs is the best play, Im just telling you what I would do becuz i dont have the ability to fold this big of a hand. Since I know im trailing against the PFR's likely range I do prefer coldcalling and possibly letting other players in the pot to pad my odds. This is live poker, im sure there are some bad players left behind us.

Im convinced coldcalling is better than 3betting here. Im not gonna compare these lines to folding cuz I dont know how to fold this hand. When theres a limper and a raiser, the second I see the raiser pick up those 6 chips, my 6 chips are already in the pot.

[jfk]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I may be opening myself to ridicule around these parts, but I'll say it anyway. I'd fold pre-flop against MP as described and while I might call depending on what I, myself, thought of that player from actually being in the game I certainly don't think that 3-betting is the thing to do. What are you trying to accomplish? Get HU against a better hand? I think you need to hit the flop hard. If you flop one pair w/o strong draws and face aggression what do you do? I hate being in this position against this type of opponent and folding pre-flop avoids the whole mess.

From where you find yourself I'd raise the flop hoping to get to the river cheap and dropping EP and wouldn't be surprised when I got 3-bet by MP so that I could curse myself some more for getting involved in the first place.

Turn:

You're not thinking of raising are you? Just call and pray.

[/ QUOTE ]

Completely agree with this thinking.

I know SSHE has cold calling with KQs as correct in "tight games" and that's probably still the best guideline to use for a typical live 15/30.

As such I took a quick look in PT and saw that in the 2% of times I cold called when dealt KQs the following conditions generally existed:

-a somewhat loose preflop raiser.
-a somewhat passive table.
-I had the button.
-at least four players see the flop.

As you played it, I'd fold the flop and just call the turn.

[drbk2]

Cold call preflop. I agree wit Ilovepoker here, folding a hand like KQs in this spot is giving up too much and 3 betting is overplaying given your description of the raiser.

Once that flops, I instamuck to his bet. Since you decided to see a turn, I guess you call. I don't really often find myself in that spot though.

[TMTTR]

Good comments. Thanks.

Slight modification: There was some negotiation involved in formulating my original post -- yes, Brett is right, there was a heated argument. Do opinions change on pre-flop/flop given:

(1) The bad player is really, really bad, i.e., he could be calling multiple bets preflop with almost any two cards (including A3o and J8s), and can be read easily.

(2) The better player is not a regular hold'em player (believe it or not, there are still people under 50 that play live stud, almost exclusively -- ok, maybe this one person). I did not have his range as narrow as stated -- he could be raising with any two broadway (probably not KTo) or any pair. His cap was not so clearly big pair/AKs because he understands the need to control the action.

So restated:

Question 1: Preflop, in late position, against a raise from a player you know well and a prior limp from a calling station that wears his cards on his face, and the likelihood of two or more additional players preflop if you limp, do you raise/call/fold with KQs?

Question 2: If in question 1, you raised and get capped by a player that can be agressive/tricky, and end up with mere overcards and a backdoor flush draw and 15:1 odds, do you call or fold (or raise) on the flop?

Thanks again.

Edit: To make it clear pre-flop, hero is not so clearly behind pre-flop when he 3-bets with position but is certainly behind the range of capping hands (but capping does not mean top 6 hands only).