My first 100,000 hands at 5/10. Where can I improve?

[milesdyson]

deadmoney, you are saying something that no one else on 2+2 agrees with. we all think you should be most "aggressive" on the flop and it should be lower on the turn and even lower on the river. when you say something that no one else agrees with, you should expect a response like that unless you have solid information to back up your claim. you would need to make a new, epic thread on why your turn aggression factor should be higher than your flop af in order for anyone to give your ideas a second look.

also, 17 posts in about a year and a half rightfully raises eyebrows.

poisoned?

[Flintoff]

Thanks for the reply Deadmoney. I'm willing to listen to all viewpoints. On the other hand ST and Miles are guys I have respected for some time.

Anyone else think I have aggression issues (other than being a tad low).

[deadmoney314]

[ QUOTE ]
deadmoney, you are saying something that no one else on 2+2 agrees with. we all think you should be most "aggressive" on the flop and it should be lower on the turn and even lower on the river. when you say something that no one else agrees with, you should expect a response like that unless you have solid information to back up your claim. you would need to make a new, epic thread on why your turn aggression factor should be higher than your flop af in order for anyone to give your ideas a second look.

also, 17 posts in about a year and a half rightfully raises eyebrows.

poisoned?

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe everyone that is complaining about not making more than 1BB/100 has something to look at in the fundamentals of their game. Why does everyone bow down to dogma just because they found a way to become a simply "winning" player. Do you think there is a limit to how much you can learn in this game, or do you learn to a point and say, "that's it, not gonna change a thing now".
Am I willing to admit that I could be wrong? Sure, but it sounds more like you guys need a fresh look at this to go forward. I base my response in this thread on the fact that my roommate plays nearly identically to me PF, yet over a large sample size I make 3-5BB/100 whereas he makes .5-1.5BB/100. The differences although small has consistantly been the fact that his flop/turn AFs are almost exactly flip flopped. Everything else being equal its my only theory on why I make more profit in the long run. If you have a better theory, I'd ask you to prove it to me. Link the thread, maybe I'll change my mind--but as soon as I stepped foot on this forum I feel like I've encoutnered the biggest closed-minded click of my life.
IMHO the turn is the most important street in FLHE and if you don't have a good sense of where you are by that point in a hand to make confident decisions either way, you are leaking. Sink or swim, if you are too passive, you are setting yourself up to call a lot of rivers because of the pot odds on the river, if you are not aggressive enough you aren't getting better hands to fold and not getting value when you are ahead.
I'll at least consider the possibilities, and if someone wants to rehash a previous thread where this is discussed in detail, i'll probably join in. But when I encounter completely closed minds on this when I've seen evidence I see is to the contrary then I question your dogma.
What will probably happen though, are unecessary flames because poker egos are to soft to sustain bruising and winning players are extremely stubborn to hear anything but praise for their assessments.
I don't disagree that you will make money with what you have outlined, I just argue that you could be making more. In fact, if everyone is subscribing to the same dogma, maybe a flipped AF for the flop/turn is succeeding solely because it is different.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
I base my response in this thread on the fact that my roommate plays nearly identically to me PF, yet over a large sample size I make 3-5BB/100 whereas he makes .5-1.5BB/100. The differences although small has consistantly been the fact that his flop/turn AFs are almost exactly flip flopped. Everything else being equal its my only theory on why I make more profit in the long run. If you have a better theory, I'd ask you to prove it to me. Link the thread, maybe I'll change my mind--but as soon as I stepped foot on this forum I feel like I've encoutnered the biggest closed-minded click of my life.


[/ QUOTE ]
so you make a claim that thousands of winning players are wrong simply because your roommate has different stats than you, and then you say that we're all close-minded.

what?

[danzasmack]

deadmoney,

How big of a sample? Could you post some screen shots of your stats, AF on each street? Basically post the same image as the OP?

Are you suggesting that someone should be LESS aggro on the flop and more aggro on the turn? or just more aggro on the turn?

TBH i do not agree with you in any way and this post is "bs: post some screen shots" but I don't want to sound like a dick.

[Scary_Tiger]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the reply Deadmoney. I'm willing to listen to all viewpoints. On the other hand ST and Miles are guys I have respected for some time.

Anyone else think I have aggression issues (other than being a tad low).

[/ QUOTE ]

Your AF are lower than mine on all streets, but nothing crazy. Mine is like 2.3/1.8/1.5.

[derosnec]

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO the turn is the most important street in FLHE and if you don't have a good sense of where you are by that point in a hand to make confident decisions either way, you are leaking.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, but how does that translate into having a higher AF than the flop?

it would be almost impossible ot play "correctly" and have a higher AF on the turn.

i mean, you would have to c-bet less, protect your hand less, push your big draws less on the flop, and then wake up on the turn.

or you would be bluffing/semibluffing more on the turn.

i'm thinking of games (1/2 or, now, because i suck at limit, .5/1) where it is often pf raise and 3 others call. being more aggro on the turn than the flop would mean i'm betting/raise more on the turn, where most of the time i have ace high, draws complete, overcards come, etc.

it just seems like such a losing strategy.

but i would love to see you post a detailed explanation of this, with HH examples, etc because I am curious

[deadmoney314]

[ QUOTE ]
deadmoney,

How big of a sample? Could you post some screen shots of your stats, AF on each street? Basically post the same image as the OP?

Are you suggesting that someone should be LESS aggro on the flop and more aggro on the turn? or just more aggro on the turn?

TBH i do not agree with you in any way and this post is "bs: post some screen shots" but I don't want to sound like a dick.

[/ QUOTE ]
When I get home tonight I'll post both screen shots (roommate's and mine). This is literally the only difference I can find other than the fact that he plays 22-44 in situations that I don't, that being said he is making more money with those hands so the difference does not lie there since my BB/100 is >.

[deadmoney314]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I base my response in this thread on the fact that my roommate plays nearly identically to me PF, yet over a large sample size I make 3-5BB/100 whereas he makes .5-1.5BB/100. The differences although small has consistantly been the fact that his flop/turn AFs are almost exactly flip flopped. Everything else being equal its my only theory on why I make more profit in the long run. If you have a better theory, I'd ask you to prove it to me. Link the thread, maybe I'll change my mind--but as soon as I stepped foot on this forum I feel like I've encoutnered the biggest closed-minded click of my life.


[/ QUOTE ]
so you make a claim that thousands of winning players are wrong simply because your roommate has different stats than you, and then you say that we're all close-minded.

what?

[/ QUOTE ]
I had no idea the way I was thinking was revolutionary and contrary to everyone on 2+2. Guess I'm a new breed, and I'm winning so you'll have to deal with me. Many people thought the earth was flat for a long long time. A few voices in the minority changed this.
That being said, a minority also began to say the universe is permeated with "ether" which turned out to be wrong. <--again I'm willing to concede that this could be me.

The reason I think this way though, is not solely based upon results of my roommate who is also a winning player with higher flop aggression. Its the quality of my decisions at the end of the day. When I look back, I find myself saying, wow I played that hand perfectly more often than saying, wow I got lucky there (win or lose).

[deadmoney314]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMHO the turn is the most important street in FLHE and if you don't have a good sense of where you are by that point in a hand to make confident decisions either way, you are leaking.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, but how does that translate into having a higher AF than the flop?

it would be almost impossible ot play "correctly" and have a higher AF on the turn.

i mean, you would have to c-bet less, protect your hand less, push your big draws less on the flop, and then wake up on the turn.

or you would be bluffing/semibluffing more on the turn.

i'm thinking of games (1/2 or, now, because i suck at limit, .5/1) where it is often pf raise and 3 others call. being more aggro on the turn than the flop would mean i'm betting/raise more on the turn, where most of the time i have ace high, draws complete, overcards come, etc.

it just seems like such a losing strategy.

but i would love to see you post a detailed explanation of this, with HH examples, etc because I am curious

[/ QUOTE ]
Well at least I've started some debate regarding concepts rather than events. Really, I don't have a clear explanation on why my turn aggression is higher, or even that I am winning because of this. I also don't want this confused as "playing the flop passively is a great idea" either. Realistically, I can't blame you for continuing your own winning style and rejecting mine--but I think it is a mistake on your part if you ignore concepts simply because they are different.
I know my stats by heart, they haven't changed in over a year, 36/14/1.9 and I rarely see anyone at the tables with the same.