Data-mining on PokerStars

[Dazarath]

PMs sent, since it's probably not allowed to be publicly discussed on this forum.

[Sciolist]

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Q) May I use a permitted program to record information about players from hands in which I am not playing?
A) No. You may only collect hand histories and player information from hands in which you are a participant.

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http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/prohibited/

The first rule of mining Stars is that mining Stars is, in no uncertain terms, not allowed.

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The second rule of mining Stars is that when you want to break the rules, you should make sure you haven't included your User ID in previous posts on 2 + 2. Masconomo.

[Sciolist]

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The second rule of mining Stars is that when you want to break the rules, you should make sure you haven't included your User ID in previous posts on 2 + 2. Masconomo.

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Oh damn, I thought I was being smart, but I think that's from a different site.

[MikeyPatriot]

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Just know that if you choose to use one of these programs, you are outright defying a rule of the cardroom and gaining an unfair advantage against players such as myself. And get bent, and such.

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QFT. This forum gets it's ass twisted over a lot of [censored]. Ultimately, it comes down to the rules. Not only the rules of the games in general, but of the poker rooms where we choose to play them. If you choose to data-mine on a site that allows it, then that is alright. If you choose to data-mine on a site whose rules forbid it then you are cheating.

That is all.

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To play Devil's Advocate, you're doing a disservice to yourself if other people are datamining you. If Stars is unable or unwilling to enforce the rule, you're essentially giving your opponents an edge (however small) for free.

"What if everyone broke the T&C and datamined?"
"I'd be crazy not to then."

Catch 22 and all that.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I experimented with datamining with an AHK script, but it was too clunky and clumsy to be worth it. Like many issues though, this isn't black or white and I don't really think either side is right or wrong.

[repulse]

True, but different people can have different levels of risk aversion and/or morality when it comes to breaking rules like this, even in situations where it is unlikely they will be caught. So for any given level of risk and/or morality associated with datamining, there will probably be some people who are not comfortable doing it. To suggest that these people should be compelled to relax their stance on cheating seems like a pretty slippery slope for the integrity of the game.

Not to mention the fact that many PokerStars players are not aware of the possibility of datamining and thus were never presented with the choice of whether or not to do it (most of these players don't have PokerTracker either, but they at least have some sort of memory of hands they have played in the past). There is precedent in online poker room rules that suggest a goal of protecting the unaware; for example, preventing abuses of small/big blind placement when new shorthanded games start, which is something that doesn't create unfair advantages when all players at the table are aware of it (they will either engage in constant reseating to try to gain this advantage or choose to play at a different table).