The hardest spot in micro stakes poker? JJ from the SB

[Supwithbates]

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if we do 3bet, leading out on this flop is far and away the best option in my opinion. while we won't often be called by worse hands, the fact of the matter is that we can still be pretty confident that it is a profitable bet on bluffing value alone.

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What worse hand is SMOOTHCALLING our flop bet?
If you can't answer that question, then your bluff has no value.
If you're folding to a shove then your play is hyperexploitable and it will be exploited at 50nl

[bozzer]

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if we do 3bet, leading out on this flop is far and away the best option in my opinion. while we won't often be called by worse hands, the fact of the matter is that we can still be pretty confident that it is a profitable bet on bluffing value alone.

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What worse hand is SMOOTHCALLING our flop bet?
If you can't answer that question, then your bluff has no value.
If you're folding to a shove then your play is hyperexploitable and it will be exploited at 50nl

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so if we check at what point are we folding or committing?

[Tito]

Grunch.

I bet $8-10 on flop. If he calls I shut down unless the turn card is a blank (eg. No A,Q,K, or heart) where I will fire another 1/2 pot bet.

I think the problem with JJ versus this particular opponent is that we know we aren't getting paid off too regularly with hands that we beat. I think I prefer calling his raise preflop and then playing poker the rest of the way. Villain is playing less than 20% of his hands and raising even less than that with a high AF. I feel all these things combined justifies cautious play, NOT scared play from us. You still have to make a reasonable attempt to win the pot with a 3-bet preflop and on this board it's just too likely villain has us beat or will have us beat before the end. However, as played you have to protect your hand against draws on the flop and re-evaluate the turn.

[carnivalhobo]

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Uh preflop is mandatory IMO.

On the flop i think bet/fold is best without better reads on this guy, once we know more about his 3betcalling range we can make different plays here. Yes it turns our hand into a bluff, but we can rep AK and fold out QQ/KK usually, and it prevents us from being bluffed in general.

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I'm not a fan of prelop 3betting at microstakes with hands like JJ mostly becuse villains call way too much with crap hands and I think that if we keep the pot manageable we can get to SD with our JJ and win a lot of pots with it. Vs stuff like AT/KT that pairs the Ten for TPGK. If we build a big pot it makes it very easy for villain to put us under more pressure with our unimproved MP as there are less chips left to bet - and I think often the hands we are ahead of fold in large pots so if we do take it to the felt for a stack then more often than not we lose the SD unimproved.

I'd *much* prefer to 3bet a suited 1 gapper than a middling pair cos most of the time after the flop my suited connector is air whereas with JJ/TT sometimes I won't improve but will still have the best hand get to SD and drag a small/medium pot.

Obv if I think villain calls a 3bet preflop with a hand I am ahead of I 3bet almost all the time.

As games get more aggro as you move up then I think 3betting preflop is the standard line as CO's open range gets a little wider and his 3bet calling range gets lots wider - I don't think at a micro table that a meowchow TAG calls our 3bet with many hands we are ahead of and it's a little better to flat pre. Also even tho we are OOP villains put nothing like as much pressure on an OOP opponent as they should at micro tables, IME a bunch of bad mcTAGs tend to CB flop, CB turn and check behind the river when they have marginal hands - I think that when you combine that fact (we will often get to SD without having to get our whole stack in ) with the looser postflop play thats prevalent at microtables (i.e. villains will felt TPGK on a ten high flop and similar hands) then that amount of EV that JJ has is what we are sacrificing when we 3bet preflop with it and mostly turn our hand into a bluff.

This is why I believe that at micro tables "standard" play is to flat call here preflop which I do ~70% of the time and 3bet the other 30%.


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Polarizing your 3bet range is a solid concept against thinking players, but i would wager that most people at 50nl arent thinking on a high enough level to make 3betting JJ a bluff. [unless they are hugely nitty, in which case bluffing with JJ by 3betting is still likely +EV because they just fold too much]

Do what you are comfortable with, but I actually played 10k hands of 100nl this month as a personal challenge, and I can safely say you are burning money not 3betting it there. So if for no other reason than practice its probably a good thing to work into your game.

[carnivalhobo]

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if we do 3bet, leading out on this flop is far and away the best option in my opinion. while we won't often be called by worse hands, the fact of the matter is that we can still be pretty confident that it is a profitable bet on bluffing value alone.

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What worse hand is SMOOTHCALLING our flop bet?
If you can't answer that question, then your bluff has no value.
If you're folding to a shove then your play is hyperexploitable and it will be exploited at 50nl

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worse hands calling have no bearing on the value of a bluff, the value is from the better hands that fold.

betting when you have the lead on A high flops is pretty far from exploitable as long as your preflop ranges are reasonable.

[carnivalhobo]

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ok - so semi-grunching - only read the first 40 posts

seems that everyone is looking at this hand in a vaccuum, which I think is wrong. If you are not 3-betting light to possible blind steals, then I don't think a 3-bet w/ JJ makes sense since this will look strong to villain and his calling range would be very tight. I think whether to 3-bet or not in this spot depends on how long you've been at the table and how villain perceives you. From someone that's a 19/16, I would think he would steal from the blinds quite often, so I'm just calling here pf as my default play as my hand has a lot of showdown value and is killing his range.

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killing his range is a good reason to 3bet, we want to put more bets in when our range is beating his. thats how we win money.

[Supwithbates]

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if we do 3bet, leading out on this flop is far and away the best option in my opinion. while we won't often be called by worse hands, the fact of the matter is that we can still be pretty confident that it is a profitable bet on bluffing value alone.

[/ QUOTE ]
What worse hand is SMOOTHCALLING our flop bet?
If you can't answer that question, then your bluff has no value.
If you're folding to a shove then your play is hyperexploitable and it will be exploited at 50nl

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so if we check at what point are we folding or committing?

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This entirely depends on your ability to read your opponent's range and actions and is impossible to answer with a generality.

For instance, vs. a weak-tight player I will probably lead this flop because he's apt to fold QQ or KK.

Vs. a LAG I'll c/f without a second thought on this flop, but I'll also 3b AJ+ PF so I'm checking an ace here fairly often as well.

Basically reverse implied odds are your enemy on hands like this no matter how you play them, because if you bet you're only getting action from better hands, and if you check you have no idea where you stand with a medium strength made hand with little chance of improving. Knowing how your opponents are apt to react in 3b pots is pretty key.

[wslee00]

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killing his range is a good reason to 3bet, we want to put more bets in when our range is beating his. thats how we win money.

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if we are killing his range when we only have JJ, do you think he will call a 3-bet from us?

[yegon]

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For instance, vs. a weak-tight player I will probably lead this flop because he's apt to fold QQ or KK.


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What will a TAG do with QQ or KK facing our cbet? Call? Is that the correct play for him to do?

[carnivalhobo]

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killing his range is a good reason to 3bet, we want to put more bets in when our range is beating his. thats how we win money.

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if we are killing his range when we only have JJ, do you think he will call a 3-bet from us?

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yes