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#1
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Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
[ QUOTE ]
Okay, so now that we all know what RIO is, what do you do to avoid losing more than winning? You can't expect people to c/f JJ on a 678r flop? Right? I admit that I hate those situations and feel lost just about every time this happens. Any suggestions? [/ QUOTE ] This is where I'm at. You can't fold an overpair everytime the board pairs or is draw heavy and villian bets into you. For example, I'm betting into your JJ with TT in the above hand, yet JJ is a solid favorite. |
#2
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Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Okay, so now that we all know what RIO is, what do you do to avoid losing more than winning? You can't expect people to c/f JJ on a 678r flop? Right? I admit that I hate those situations and feel lost just about every time this happens. Any suggestions? [/ QUOTE ] This is where I'm at. You can't fold an overpair everytime the board pairs or is draw heavy and villian bets into you. For example, I'm betting into your JJ with TT in the above hand, yet JJ is a solid favorite. [/ QUOTE ] Me too. -these are tricky marginal situations for sure -as long as we keep them marginal and don't put too much monies in then they shouldn't affect our winrate much. I think this comes down to knowing your villan and handreading erring on the side of folding vs. unknowns/when unsure. As long as we don't put too much money in the pot then we should be able to charge drawers /weaker hands and only lose some when we're behind. The JJ hand I cbet OOP then shutdown, in positon I'll check not worring about a free card or bet the turn if I suspect villan is drawing. I did this yesterday -river completed a str8 villan bet the river and I folded knowing I he likely hit as he check-called on teh flop &turn. I didn't payoff his river bet and he flashed the str8. If bet into on drawy board by bluffers/drawers I often raise IP if they reraise I obv fold but if they call they are often drawing/weak overpair esp. if they lead turn weak. I often call the turn weak lead and let them bluff a blank river. Note this applies HU -multiway I'm likely folding. Just some rambling thoughts. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Anyone else got advice/thoughts on these tricky situations? |
#3
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Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
I know You don't aggree, but once again, in this certain situation I stick to the suggestion of an internet pro, who bets 1/4 to 1/3 of the pot on a scary flop.
You don't want to loose much in the RIO situation and I think this kind of bet is the best You can do. If Your opponent is sitting on a draw, he has the pot odds to call or he might reraise. But I don't see a better try for me. If he isn't on a draw, it's not that easy to deal for him with that kind of a bet. Because he can't be sure whether we are on a draw or whether we hit the straight, reraising in this situation isn't that easy for him. Betting 1/4 or 1/3 of the pot doesn't commit much money if I get reraised - in which case I fold - but sometimes may lead to a cheap showdown, if he calls. |
#4
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Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
[ QUOTE ]
I know You don't aggree, but once again, in this certain situation I stick to the suggestion of an internet pro, who bets 1/4 to 1/3 of the pot on a scary flop. [/ QUOTE ] This is ridiculously exploitable. Here's why: [ QUOTE ] Betting 1/4 or 1/3 of the pot doesn't commit much money if I get reraised - in which case I fold [/ QUOTE ] You need to make meaningful bets or good opponents will catch on and rip you apart. Maybe not at µ-stakes but certainly as you move higher up. |
#5
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Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
I don't think so. This advice comes from an internet pro, who has lots of success. No one rips him apart. By the way, it's easy to criticize someones suggestions without referring to Kazanas question! You leave her question unanswered!
We are in a RIO situation. Pumping up the pot seems to be a mistake, checking and doing nothing seems bad, too, as Kazana stated in her post. So I think the only option You have is bet a little. |
#6
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Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I know You don't aggree, but once again, in this certain situation I stick to the suggestion of an internet pro, who bets 1/4 to 1/3 of the pot on a scary flop. [/ QUOTE ] This is ridiculously exploitable. Here's why: [ QUOTE ] Betting 1/4 or 1/3 of the pot doesn't commit much money if I get reraised - in which case I fold [/ QUOTE ] You need to make meaningful bets or good opponents will catch on and rip you apart. Maybe not at µ-stakes but certainly as you move higher up. [/ QUOTE ] i play microstakes and if someone bet 1/4 pot into me I would probably raise any overpair |
#7
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Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
I've just been reading through the posts in the FAQ and other sticked threads in here and SSNL. This is a great topic, but the question of what to do about reverse implied odds never really got answered. As someone said earlier in this thread, "you can't just fold". Is there anywhere else that you can read about reverse implied odds? I wouldn't mind having a read of more information on this topic.
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#8
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Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
agreed.... seems like we never got anywhere beyond identifying that we find ourselves in these spots more often then we probably would like to admit.
Is it an unavoidable scenario that occurs when trying to make the most correct plays and make your opps make the biggest mistakes? Personally, I think it comes down to two things (apologies if this is elementary but at least im taking a step to flush this out further): 1. your ability to put villain on a likely range given how he has played the hand. 2. and identifying RIO situations PF and on Flop and taking a line that allows you to make easier decisions when confronted with the RIO threat. I think one good point that was made earlier ties in with my first point, that being against unknowns err on the side of folding. On that 789r flop w JJ and we get minR I think we need a strong read of villain to invest much more money in this hand. Against an unknown i think it is better to lean towards a fold on turn when faced with further aggression unless of course a T hits. Also, this probably goes without saying, but it would seem that we get into RIO situations a lot more often OOP. As a general rule I sort of naturally play hands more passively after the turn OOP and again will more likely lean towards a fold then if i were IP. I think RIO is a much more "all-encompassing" idea than the other concepts previously discussed. I'm wondering if the size of this idea and countless applications is the reason this topic is the least explained and explored of these threads. |
#9
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Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
This is a great thread. Thanks! I now realize that I see these situations all the time and just didn't quite know what to call them.
Now that several people have asked the question "so what do we do about RIO?", maybe we can investigate what EMc originally asked for: [ QUOTE ] situations where the concept was applied effectively as well as examples of poor usage of the concept [/ QUOTE ] I'm beginning to see examples of RIO as they develop, but i'm not sure how we can apply RIO effectively/poorly other than a simple understanding of lose big / win little. Additionally, how far does the concept of 'Make you opponent make a mistake' go here.....i.e. on the JJ overpair example if we make bets that DON'T give villian odds to draw to the flush (even though we suspect he'll call anyway) are we doing enough? thoughts? |
#10
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Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 5, Reverse Implied Odds**
When does it switch from being Reverse Implied Odds to implied odds?
How would I play this hand differently with QQ, JJ, TT, 99? Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (3 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums) BB ($5) Hero ($41.60) SB ($26.80) Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.10. <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB (poster) raises to $1.65</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $5</font>, SB calls $3.25. Flop: ($10.25) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> SB calls $26.70 (All-In), Hero calls $21.80. Turn: ($58.75) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font> River: ($58.75) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font> Final Pot: $58.75 |
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