Dilemma: Experienced online player vs casual home game buds

[Phenom604]

Does anyone have this same problem: being an experienced online player who dedicates himself to continues poker improvement; while spending Friday nights with a group of friends who play $10 home tournaments every week.

My buddies all love poker too, but the don't have the time, or ambition to pursue a learning of the game. There styles and strategies can be very easy to beat with classic textbook play. The fact that I am experienced and have the added ability to read their moves through their personalities, and react accordingly makes me a bigger force in the game.

While I enjoy being a dominant player, I almost feel guilty doing so. I never feel guilty beating the piss out of guys in the Sit and Goes, but with my buddies, its different. Even players think they are better than they actually are, some have started to notice that I am the best player there, and my play becomes more analyzed and single out than other players.

Don't get me wrong: I love winning and have worked hard to learn how to do so. But I also don't want that to hurt me socially in any way. If I want to make money, I don't have to win it from my friends, as I can win it online instead. I worry about sometimes alienating my friends hoping that the idea of not inviting me so they have a better chance of winning doesn't come up. Some guys who think that poker is about luck and getting cards won't be concerned about me. I just hope guys don't get so sick of losing that they see me in a threating way.

The dilemma is, that I have sometimes thought about throwing games, or finishing for the second place money instead of first. The problem with this, would be that I'd feel like I was cheating myself, or doing something wrong.

Rather than throwing games, what is the best way to deal with this. I've been told about an idea to lose money on zero EV bets by betting on the color of the flop. I will try that. Also, I will use money I win to buy drinks, but alot of the time, guys don't go out other than just play cards.

Any other ideas or suggestions would be awesome. Or any shared stories.

[Annorax]

I had this same dilemma. I had no qualms about beating online games, live B&M games, or home games I was invited to outside my main group of friends.

Then I recommended a couple books and they started kicking my ass. YMMV.

Also: live straddle, for more than 2bb in NL/PL. You get more action in the pots, you get more chips in blind so a bad run of cards shrinks your effective stacks and makes your friends think they're seriously beating you, and the few monster pots you win will make them think you're a total luckbox.

[Forbin]

Play your Friday night games for fun, rather than ruthlessly trying to win. You don't have to go out of your way to lose, but you also don't have to maximize EV at every decision.

If I want to make money playing poker I go to one of the card rooms or play online. Every other week or so I also wind up playing a more social poker night with buddies. It may be a small $20-$40 buyin NL game, or a couple $10-$40 tourneys. While it's nice to win money in those, I tend to chase draws when I shouldn't and do my best to win via suck out. It leads to more trash talking, which always goes well with drinking. Have fun first and worry about the poker second.

Look it as hanging out with your friends, having a good time, and winning (or losing) a few bucks. If you lose $10 or $20, it's just the entertainment cost of the night, much like going to see a movie or the cover charge at a bar.

[TexRef]

Agree with other responses... When you get up, give more action, play with cards that you might normally not. You'll still win some pots and sometimes you'll let the other players "beat" you out of a pot. It's good for the game!

[garcia1000]

If you play a TAG style, this is a good time to get experience playing LAG.

[pfapfap]

You can't force your friends to be into what you're into with the same level of intensity. If you want to play tougher, bigger games, you'll have to start making friends with existing poker players. You can play silly little games with your friends, too, but start searching for bigger established games.

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
Agree with other responses... When you get up, give more action, play with cards that you might normally not. You'll still win some pots and sometimes you'll let the other players "beat" you out of a pot. It's good for the game!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the way to go if your buddies like the extra action. Go all-in blind whenever you're on the button (tell them ahead of time of course!), post raises for other players out of your own stack, flip one card over as you play a hand, etc. If they are all nits, just play with a shortened stack from the outset and play your normal game.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone have this same problem: being an experienced online player who dedicates himself to continues poker improvement; while spending Friday nights with a group of friends who play $10 home tournaments every week.

My buddies all love poker too, but the don't have the time, or ambition to pursue a learning of the game. There styles and strategies can be very easy to beat with classic textbook play. The fact that I am experienced and have the added ability to read their moves through their personalities, and react accordingly makes me a bigger force in the game.

While I enjoy being a dominant player, I almost feel guilty doing so. I never feel guilty beating the piss out of guys in the Sit and Goes, but with my buddies, its different. Even players think they are better than they actually are, some have started to notice that I am the best player there, and my play becomes more analyzed and single out than other players.

Don't get me wrong: I love winning and have worked hard to learn how to do so. But I also don't want that to hurt me socially in any way. If I want to make money, I don't have to win it from my friends, as I can win it online instead. I worry about sometimes alienating my friends hoping that the idea of not inviting me so they have a better chance of winning doesn't come up. Some guys who think that poker is about luck and getting cards won't be concerned about me. I just hope guys don't get so sick of losing that they see me in a threating way.

The dilemma is, that I have sometimes thought about throwing games, or finishing for the second place money instead of first. The problem with this, would be that I'd feel like I was cheating myself, or doing something wrong.

Rather than throwing games, what is the best way to deal with this. I've been told about an idea to lose money on zero EV bets by betting on the color of the flop. I will try that. Also, I will use money I win to buy drinks, but alot of the time, guys don't go out other than just play cards.

Any other ideas or suggestions would be awesome. Or any shared stories.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't sound like your friends are resentful about it, so I wouldn't worry about it. I mean, c'mon, ten bucks? Would you feel guilty about somebody else buying a round of drinks?

In my experience, you're just likely to become known as the good player in your circle, just like you might have a guy who is the good golfer, or the best hoops player or whatever. They may give you a hard time about it, but it would be pretty odd if it caused any actual hard feelings.

BTW, write back when you've gone like 8 weeks in the game without cashing. You may be the best player, but poker will still give you runs like that.

Also, soft-playing is a pretty bad idea. If the other players think you are good, a few donk plays isn't going to change that, and your edge in poker is never so big that its a good idea to throw some of it away. The distance from crushing a game to losing in it, is not a very big step at all.

--Zetack

[moris]

What's your reason for playing with them?

Do you want to demolish a bunch of social players? If yes, then you got what you want.

Do you want them to improve to your level? Sounds like it is very unlikely so go find a different group.

Do you want to continue to take their money and not experience any negative reprecussions? Disguise your play with minor EV losses and a bunch of 0 EV plays.

Do you want to just enjoy the social environment? Throw a donk play every now and then.

What the hell are you whining about? You're all over the board. What do you want?

[PantsOnFire]

I have two ideas for you, and you probably want to keep them to yourself at the poker table.

1. Start playing some hands without looking at your cards. Sharpen up on the patterns of others. Get your reading down better. Play off of physical tells. This is probably -EV but is not nearly as bad as soft-playing.

2. Instead of folding in certains spots, make calls where you know or think you are beat. You would not be doing this as a softplay but rather to get a player to show down some cards so you can see how accurate your read was in that situation.

Both of these ideas are very probably -EV but in your own little world, you might be improving as a poker player while not crushing your buddies. And you'll probably do it in a way that they won't notice and just think you are having a bit of a bad run.

The only other thing I can think of is to be a bit more passive. I have been told that when I am rolling and in a zone at the poker table, I am simply very difficult to deal with using semi-tight, very aggressive tactics.

You can probably still play a winning game being more passive and if you are really concerned about your buddies, I'm sure this would give them some breathing room. In other words, give them some rope and let them hang themselves instead of pulling out the 12 gauge and blasting them between the eyes.