Fundamental error re-raising nut high here?

Pale_Rider · #1 05-10-2006, 02:28 AM

Hello, I'm new to Omaha8 and there's times where i'm not sure what the right play is. I think i made a bad mistake on the turn here

POKERSTARS GAME #4887887919: OMAHA HI/LO POT LIMIT ($0.02/$0.05) - 2006/05/10 - 00:57:40 (ET)
Table 'Libussa II' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: DMadmonks ($10.64 in chips)
Seat 2: bthsidesnow ($3.17 in chips)
Seat 3: cedece ($5.23 in chips)
Seat 4: xalang ($3.56 in chips)
Seat 5: king pone ($4.84 in chips)
Seat 6: Jack Junior ($5.21 in chips)
Seat 7: ballsy77 ($3.05 in chips)
Seat 9: HERO ($9.09 in chips)
Griffith75 will be allowed to play after the buttom
HERO: posts small blind $0.02
DMadmonks: posts big blind $0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [Tc 8d As Ac]
bthsidesnow: folds
cedece: folds
xalang: folds
king pone: raises $0.05 to $0.10
Jack Junior: folds
ballsy77: folds
HERO: calls $0.08
DMadmonks: calls $0.05
*** FLOP *** [Kd 8s 4s] POT 0.30
HERO: checks
DMadmonks: checks
king pone: bets $0.20
HERO: calls $0.20
DMadmonks: folds
*** TURN *** [Kd 8s 4s] [Ah] POT 0.70
HERO: bets $0.40
king pone: raises $0.40 to $0.80
HERO: raises $1.75 to $2.55
king pone: calls $1.75
*** RIVER *** [Kd 8s 4s Ah] [5c] POT 5.80
HERO: checks
king pone: checks

Criticism of all streets welcome, did i make a criticial error on the turn? Re-rasing what looks like a good/nut low here when i got no chance of a low. It seems like a mistake to build up such a huge pot with a pretty vulnerable shot at only 1/2 pot.

TheStation · #2 05-10-2006, 02:32 AM

You said it perfectly yourself. It's not usually good to build up a big pot heads up when the best you can do is really get a refund

Any 23xx or any low + flush draw hands have you pretty owned

Cooker · #3 05-10-2006, 11:53 AM

I think you should put in a full reraise preflop. In my experience, the min raise comes from a decent low oriented drawing hand and you are likely the favorite preflop. I would like to try and isolate (probably not typically possible at this level, but when you get the chance go for it). Then you can lead a lot of flops since he is going to be hard pressed to call anything with only a low draw which is what he will usually flop. You probably also want to lay off flops with 2 diamonds or 2 hearts since you have both black Aces he is somewhat likely to have a suited A and it will be red. Aggression gains in value as opponents go down.

The turn raise is probably bad and you are usually getting freerolled. If you are going to call on the flop, I prefer to lead at it. You are often good for high here, so why not take a shot at getting the whole pot if your opponents won't draw to naked lows (which decent players usually won't).

TxRedMan · #4 05-10-2006, 12:13 PM

Re-raising PF here is crazy. He has a one way hand, and will get free-rolled way too often.

Starfall · #5 05-10-2006, 01:18 PM

AAT8 single-suited is not a great hand pre-flop - it's definitely worth playing in PLO, but with virtually no low potential it's marginal at best in PLO8. When you get a raise pre-flop, there's a good change that you'll be against someone with at least half-decent low potential, and then if a low hits you lose half the pot, pretty much every time, so a lot of the time you won't get much back. In limit it may still be worth a look, because more people are liable to stay in, it won't cost you too much, etc, but in Pot Limit it's a dangerous hand to play, especially when you're likely to be either heads-up or against only 2 opponents.

The flop was pretty bad for you, as while you got 2 pair, you then had little chance for improving, while a low became likely to occur. Additionally, if your opponents had 2 spades with a low draw, then they have a reasonable chance to scoop you.

The turn gave you the nut hand for high, but it also meant that you were almost certain to lose the low. At that point, you could raise the pot to try to push them out, but you have to consider you have no chance of improving to scoop the low, while they have a chance of improving to scoop you, while otherwise you'll split the pot, so they're freerolling to take all your chips, which is exactly the situation you don't want when you're putting all your chips in.

There are 2 scenarios here - they have a non-nut low, and can be pushed off, but you need to bet very strongly to do this. If you suspect them of having a non-nut low and raise, if you get raised back then you have to expect that you're being freerolled. The other is that he has the nut low, and then you either want to fold the hand (losing a little bit but saving risking all your chips just to get a few extra back), or save your chips for the river, and hope that the card is one that may counterfeit his hand, and make a big raise then to try to try to push him off the pot. The downside of that strategy here is that any card that could counterfeit his hand could also make him a wheel, and counterfeit yours, so it would be a risky play.

The best approach would have been to fold pre-flop because you knew you were probably against someone who would beat you for a low - one-way-only hands, even good ones like this lose a lot of value in PLO8. Seeing a big raise on the flop, with the dangers that the flop gave to your hand, you probably shouldn't have continued playing there either - you could put in a pot-sized raise to try to push off a low-only drawing hand, but would get called by exactly the kind of flush and low draw hands that would take all your chips because they'd have enough outs to call anyway. The turn ensured you were only after half the pot, and didn't do much to stop you being liable to get scooped (only making a full house would have done that). Everything said fold, IMHO.

Cooker · #6 05-10-2006, 02:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]

The best approach would have been to fold pre-flop because you knew you were probably against someone who would beat you for a low - one-way-only hands, even good ones like this lose a lot of value in PLO8.

[/ QUOTE ]

At least your first post was good for a laugh. Fold AAT8 ss preflop for a min raise from a late position player from the SB no less. I hope everyone I play with heads this advice. More money for me.

Pale_Rider · #7 05-10-2006, 03:29 PM

Thanks for sharing your knowledge guys, FWIW villain was mini rasing 2-3 times per orbit.

*** RIVER *** [Kd 8s 4s Ah] [5c]
HERO: checks
king pone: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
HERO: shows [Tc 8d As Ac] (HI: three of a kind, Aces)
king pone: shows [3d 2s 4h Kc] (HI: a straight, Ace to Five; LO: 5,4,3,2,A)
king pone collected $2.78 from pot
king pone collected $2.77 from pot

Amazingly he checked it down with only 1.99 behind him and saved me some $$$, then promptly left the table. If he did go all in on river would anyone call there or is that spewing?

gergery · #8 05-10-2006, 11:45 PM

Help me out here Starfall, since I'm pretty new to PLO8.

What are good hands preflop then if AAxx isn't?
Should I be folding to min-raises preflop a lot with AAxx?

Thank you for your help, as I'd really like to learn this game and by your post it looks like you know a whole lot.

Regards,
Greg

morphball · #9 05-11-2006, 03:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Help me out here Starfall, since I'm pretty new to PLO8.

What are good hands preflop then if AAxx isn't?
Should I be folding to min-raises preflop a lot with AAxx?

Thank you for your help, as I'd really like to learn this game and by your post it looks like you know a whole lot.

Regards,
Greg

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg - It was his first post, so he obviously has not been tainted by the old theories we have here. I for one find it refreshing that new people can come onto our forum and offer us advice from outside of the box!

morph