M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

[1p0kerboy]

teacher:

on lesson #3, from your personal experience are 3-bet ranges fairly tight from your opponents once you have opened the pot? Are there hands that you are normally looking to get it in with, such as JJ,AK+ (or is this range too small) and hands that you add to a loose 3bettor, such as 77+,AQ+. Are my ranges close to "typical" for the smaller (100NL) 6max games, or are they too tight?

[Steelerman]

[ QUOTE ]
steelerman,
congrats!
Ed Miller's shortstacking work is excellent at being a primer. It will put you in a good spot to beat weak competition, but it doesn't include the adjustments to beat advanced competition.

What I've already written and will have finished soon will be enough to beat most 400NL and 600NL 6max games on the internet.

You'll need to adjust verse competition that doesn't call 3 bets with KJ too often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks M2TR. As I was playing the gears were already turning on how I could make some slight adjustments to play even better. It almost seems not worth it when everyone is so horrrible and pays no attention to your insanely tight range.

I did add in some blind stealing with a wider range in LP and some flat calling with KK & AA preflop. Also didn't necessarily go all-in on every flop. I have aspirations to be an excellent player at higher levels (full buy-in lol), but if people are going to give money away I'm happy to take it.

[Kos13]

Kill yourselves. All of you.

(Not a threat...I'm asking politely for you guys to all go jump off a bridge. Please.)

[MyTurn2Raise]

[ QUOTE ]
teacher:

Are you saying that with >13BB, which is what we will normally have, we should be opening the pot from the small blind with a normal sized "shortstack" raise of 2.5-3BB, and then deciding how to play the pot from that point? (If we think we have at least equal skill as our opponent postflop).

[/ QUOTE ]

that would seem to be right

however, my experience is that poor players make really poor adjustments to my strat (like calling with only the top 5% of hands)

[RikaKazak]

[ QUOTE ]
diebitter
iponnet
eseehcehtlla
soah
hklm8383
orhtnax
rikakazak
theprodigy
sabr42
too easy
acecr9
calleddownlight
kurtsf
eihcuorg
ryancmu
splitsuit
demon102
illini43
effen

*had to cheat a little, bastards here don't have enough names beginning with e

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

[poincaraux]

[ QUOTE ]
software question:

is there any cool tool that will allow one to see how every single possible hand (all 169) do verse a range of hands?

it's tedious to manually type each hand v range

it would be a cool pokerstove add-on to be able to put in a range and then see the ev of every single hand verse that range

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean like this? I made that for vs. the top 10%, 25%, 50%, 75%, 90% and 100% (random) of hands, and I could easily make it vs. any particular range of your choice. It takes a while to make each chart, though.

This is all very interesting, but I'm surprised to see it all laid out in public. What made you decide to do it?

[MyTurn2Raise]

LESSON 5: A 2-Street Game Can Be Powerful

Alright, I posted earlier on not playing the 2-street game. For the most part, that is right. However, my datamining and the math have shown me that sometimes a 2-street game can bring down havoc upon your enemies. For this, I'd like to look at an example from the book Kill Everyone. On p. 99, they start a section "Big Pushes on the Flop." Picture this, pot is 1800 on the flop and it's heads-up. The first to act is the small blind with 5400. The small blind pushes allin on As7h2c flop. What should the other player call with? If the latter player has a range of 22+, A2s+, A5+, K9+, QT+, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s+, it's positive ev for the small stack to push any two cards if the later player needs AT+ to call. Of course, that is an extreme scenario involving any two cards verse a pretty wide range that doesn't call light. The key here is that this same concept can be used to exploit certain players. Some players just nit up post flop. How hard is it to push two to three times the pot all-in on the flop when one catches any part of it (one-pair, OESD, flush draw, even an over card and inside straight draw) and put the pressure on light callers?
Don't pull this move too often, but it's awful nice to mix in the bag of tricks. It works real well when you'll pull the same move with AA preflop.


But, this gets at another point--know the equities of certain ranges on different types of flops. Trust me, some players will take shots at the shortstacker who clams up postflop. OTOH, some fullies clam up as well and are highly exploitable. If you see someone who folds to a flop bet 70%+ of the time, you know they have high standards for moving on in the hand. Of course, guys do goofy things when shorties get involved, so pay attention to see if they buck their normal playing style.

There are a myriad of examples that one can go through year. One cannot go through all of them. However, just study a few to get something of a feel for the equities.

This kind of ties back into the Vanveen quote in the first lesson [ QUOTE ]
If we're really ambitious we can analyse flops and maybe just call sometimes. Tedious, but fairly easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

[MyTurn2Raise]

This is about as far as I've gotten in over-arching shortstacking theory and execution---This seems to be all it boils down to above what is commmonly known

notice that none of this stuff is that revolutionary
it's just a matter of piecing together everything we know from different types of poker and seeing how it applies in these unique circumstances

I might remember a lesson or two, but I expect this thread to get more to specifics from my end

I hope others share over-arching themes that they come across

for fun, The Hit and Run thread is what started me on shortstacking

I believe Stars 25-50 shortstackers started Imsakidd and Curtains

How to play dirrtySanchez shows how important blind stealing is even for tighter players

[MyTurn2Raise]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
software question:

is there any cool tool that will allow one to see how every single possible hand (all 169) do verse a range of hands?

it's tedious to manually type each hand v range

it would be a cool pokerstove add-on to be able to put in a range and then see the ev of every single hand verse that range

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean like this? I made that for vs. the top 10%, 25%, 50%, 75%, 90% and 100% (random) of hands, and I could easily make it vs. any particular range of your choice. It takes a while to make each chart, though.


[/ QUOTE ]
Wow...that's above and beyond what I was thinking.
I was more along the lines of the chart's that were in Andy Bloch's preflop chapter in the Full Tilt Tournament Strategy Guide where it listed how each team did v top 10%, top 25%, top 50%, etc.

like
AA 81.31%
KK 74.96%
QQ 71.12%
and so on

v various ranges, such as the one BigJim posted for 6max TAG UTG

[ QUOTE ]

This is all very interesting, but I'm surprised to see it all laid out in public. What made you decide to do it?

[/ QUOTE ]
many, many, many reasons
***with 24 tables, I now have the same earn with little grief playing full that I did shorting--same point on risk v reward v challenge graph

-----I'm kind of a unique cat in that I don't really care too much about the money in poker other than it meaning I don't have to get a real job. I play low stacks. So low that most are shocked to find out. I use economies of scale. I'm fine with the trade-off. I stress too much when I play real limits and stress will kill me in the long-run much more than not making a few more bones. I'm convinced that most of us live in luxury. There has never been a time of such riches.


***sick of getting grief from 2p2ers who I have personal respect for over not sharing my info

***sick of the whole sharing info will destroy the games debate---let's see if it will [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

***i don't think it will adversely effect those who do short that i know in the long-run

***the info is coming out sooner or later anyway

***maybe the games will get flooded and sites will move up the buyin

[random50]

I can't see shortstacking discussions having much impact on the game overall.

What percentage of online poker players are going to see this thread anyway?
Of those who see this thread, how many are going to be interested in becoming shortstackers if they aren't already, and how many of the current *bad* shortstackers are going to suddenly become effective just by reading such advice?

A very small percentage in both cases IMO.

If it were that easy for the average Joe to absorb the info, they'd all be much better already, regardless of which stack size they use (I think there's a big tendency on this site, which seems to consist of decidedly above average people, to either underestimate the difficulty of the game, or overestimate the average intelligence of the population...or possibly both!)

Worst case scenario...some great info gets out into the wide world and appears on a multitude of "make money at poker, guaranteed" sites, the hordes copy it playbook style and, because they're too stupid/lazy/stubborn to adapt, give a big edge to those who take the time to study their playbook. I can't see it scaring the fish off, any more than having large numbers of multitabling regulars scares them off now.