200+ bb deep, flop top two vs. LAG

[sethypooh21]

Villain is like 45/25.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($416.40)
MP ($197)
CO ($184)
Button ($21.80)
Hero ($420.05)
BB ($200)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $6</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls $5, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($14) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $12</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $36</font>

I really have no idea how to play in this spot...

[AZK]

fold pre

lead flop

[sethypooh21]

[ QUOTE ]
fold pre

lead flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain please?

[DeathDonkey]

Preflop its going to be a tough hand to play OOP vs a decent LAG this deep and you don't want to ever be making mistakes when super deep. Coldcall or 3 bet this and lots of other stuff in position though. He wants you to lead flop to start building a pot now on such a dry board where the guy might overplay a lot of hands. I actually would like to hear why he doesn't like the CR though, I think on this board its not bad at all and the described player is going to overplay big pairs here IMO. BTW I'm never folding this hand on this board unless turn/river are ridiculous so you realize your flop CR pretty much commits you to going with the hand?

-DeathDonkey

[futuredoc85]

because he will raise your donkbet a lot and if you checkraise your hand is pretty transparent to a decent hand-reader. also while i agree we arent folding anywhere we dont necessarily want to get all in ASAP either, since most people wont stack off in a raised pot w/ an overpair this deep, he can fold his overpairs more easily and easily get all 200BBs in w/ his sets.

[Josh.]

[ QUOTE ]
fold pre

[/ QUOTE ]


really? for 3x bb vs a 25 pfr i call this all day

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fold pre

lead flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain please?

[/ QUOTE ]

35/25 or whatever he is, is raising so much that his hand range can't really justify you playing T9s oop, the beauty of playiing 35/25 in position is that you don't need to have a hand but your opponents do. It's hard to get value from T9s when you do flop because he probably has 5 high, on bad boards you likely are going to make big mistakes (i.e. boards where you flop a pair) by either paying off or getting bluffed. It's just not a great spot because his range is so wide and he has position and you are new to nl and probably a little on the weak tight side, a recipe for disaster. You don't make money off of players like this by playing T9s for a raise oop... as for the flop, you want to get in the habit of building huge pots with big hands. This is a god damn monster.

[Grunch]

To all you limit converts:

Every time you plan to check-raise the flop you should consider doing something else instead. If you never check-raised any flops ever, you would not be too far from correct.

[bravos1]

[ QUOTE ]
To all you limit converts:

Every time you plan to check-raise the flop you should consider doing something else instead. If you never check-raised any flops ever, you would not be too far from correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow... more insight please?

[Grunch]

A lot of times people plan to check-raise for one reason, but they actually get the opposite effect.

For example on the posted hand. Hero probably check-raised the flop because he thought that would bee the best way to balance getting the opponent to not fold a bluff and to get the most value from worse hands. But it's actually not the best at either one. If you're looking to get a bluffer to bluff, you should just let him. If you raise you're giving him an opportunity to jetison his hand.

On the other hand if you're looking to get value from a good hand then betting right out is usually the best plan. Consider what happens if the opponent has a hand like AA and you bet out. He'll probably raise, at which point you can possibly go all-in. This results in you getting all the chips in on the flop when he is in the worst possible shape, making the biggest possible mistake.

Another option could be used against an opponent who overvalues his hands by calling too much but tends to check-behind medium or marginal hands on the river: check-call the flop &amp; check-raise the turn, then push the river. One big problem with this line is that the better opponents will know what it means, and will fold all but their strongest hands. This however can be used against them...