KTs flops a FD, line check

[Hattifnatt]

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I don't think dumping it pre is great.

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I think dumping it pre here most of the time is the best play for the absolute majoroty of players, semi-big cards like this doesnt play well at all OOP in 3-way pots.

fold > squeeze > call

would you even consider calling with it if it wasnt suited...?

[SnglMaltScotch]

OK, This is 1-2 levels above my 0.5/1 and 1/2 playing level, but I am trying to learn.

I know tl;dr, but I am learning here.

The general consensus is that this line is standard, but there are many decisions in this hand that I have trouble with.

1. The call PF. I normally fold here. The UTG raiser is pretty aggressive but not maniacal. There were no reads on the CO so we will assume that he is reasonable. A K with a middle kicker (suited or not) is very difficult to play post flop oop. What do we hope for on the flop (other than a flush/flush draw). If we spike a K or a T we can't feel good oop and being quite possibly dominated. Add that to the fact that he raised 4x not 3x and I would fold here.

OK, we called PR.

UTG CBs into 2 callers. Without any other read on CB from villain this portrays some level of strength. Does he CB some totally whiffed hand of KQ or something. Hard to tell. CO calls again... Interesting. The pot now has $108 in it and its up to us.

Options:
Fold... I don't think so.
Raise: When I try and raise I think of 2 things.
First will better hands fold. In this case, yes, I think the CO could fold some middleish pair type hand. I have trouble betting on the fact that both villains fold, so I would put our overall (winning the hand right here) fold equity very low. Add this with the fact that we didn’t push, but made a less than 3x raise, that even reduces our overall fold equity.
Second, will worse hands call. I have trouble thinking of any worse hands that call except possibly worse flush draws.
Call: We have a fairly good draw and a couple of overs. Not too great, but not too bad either. If we call, does UTG villain bet again on the turn with missed overs etc... No, not with 2 people calling his flop bet. Does a call flip our hand over as a flush draw. I don't think so. We could be calling with all sorts of stuff.

So with the combination of fairly low fold equity and the call not screaming flush draw, I would call here.

OK, we raised to $116 putting $224 in the pot and leaving us with $268 behind and showing a great deal of strength by raising 2 villains. Now UTG pushes into 2 players one of which raised a raged type flop. He is not fooling around here. CO folds. There is now essentially $492 in the pot and it is $268 for you to call. If I did my math right that is 1.83:1 required to call (2:1 close enough).

Villain possible hands must be pretty limited here.

AA/KK: We are a 60/40 dog w/o the As and a 66/33 dog with it.
TT-QQ: Essentially flipping here.
Set: 75/25 dog.
Ax(spades): 80/20 dog.

So basically to make the call, we need to expect TT-QQ and AA/KK without a spade enough to offset the other possibilities. I think that the call is pretty close. I could come really close to finding a fold to the push.

Thoughts

SMS

[Yeti]

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would you even consider calling with it if it wasnt suited...?

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i wouldn't call if it was K2 either, but its not? heh

[J_C]

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Yes, the whole line is standard IMO. Against one opponent I would sometimes lead out and happily get it in if raised.

You obviously have to call the AI getting nearly 2-1 as overpairs are a huge part of his range and you have plenty of equity vs them. You are in worse shape vs set/unlikely 2 pair/NFD obviously.

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Is the reason you wouldnt lead out here because you are expecting one of the two to bet?

<font color="blue"> </font> Pretty much, yes. It also makes the CR look stronger . Here's a good chance UTG, as PFR, will lead at this flop. If CO raises that I dump immediately, but otherwise the CR looks very strong. Obviously you are then committed to putting the rest in if reraised on the flop. If called you could be left with a difficult decision on the turn but given your line is strong you probably need to push anything except possibly a non-spade A. <font color="blue"> </font>

Would you still raise this flop if you were againt one opponent.

<font color="blue"> </font> Assuming I didn't lead then yes, I would probably CR. <font color="blue"> </font>

If you were in position would you just call?

<font color="blue"> </font> Yes if I act after CO, whether or not he has called UTG's bet. With three in the pot you would be a little bit wary of someone holding AsXs though. <font color="blue"> </font>

Sorry for the questions, trying to think about different scenarios here.

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I'm also really surprised at the number of people saying fold pre, given that you close the action. Don't people view KTs as primarily a drawing hand rather than a one pair hand?
You'd all call with 9Ts right?

[dchz]

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Yes, the whole line is standard IMO. Against one opponent I would sometimes lead out and happily get it in if raised.

You obviously have to call the AI getting nearly 2-1 as overpairs are a huge part of his range and you have plenty of equity vs them. You are in worse shape vs set/unlikely 2 pair/NFD obviously.

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Is the reason you wouldnt lead out here because you are expecting one of the two to bet?

<font color="blue"> </font> Pretty much, yes. It also makes the CR look stronger . Here's a good chance UTG, as PFR, will lead at this flop. If CO raises that I dump immediately, but otherwise the CR looks very strong. Obviously you are then committed to putting the rest in if reraised on the flop. If called you could be left with a difficult decision on the turn but given your line is strong you probably need to push anything except possibly a non-spade A. <font color="blue"> </font>

Would you still raise this flop if you were againt one opponent.

<font color="blue"> </font> Assuming I didn't lead then yes, I would probably CR. <font color="blue"> </font>

If you were in position would you just call?

<font color="blue"> </font> Yes if I act after CO, whether or not he has called UTG's bet. With three in the pot you would be a little bit wary of someone holding AsXs though. <font color="blue"> </font>

Sorry for the questions, trying to think about different scenarios here.

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I'm also really surprised at the number of people saying fold pre, given that you close the action. Don't people view KTs as primarily a drawing hand rather than a one pair hand?
You'd all call with 9Ts right?

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LOL
am i getting leveled here?

[KvGalen]

i think it really depends on history. How did he see you play your flush draws, sets?

[Hattifnatt]

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would you even consider calling with it if it wasnt suited...?

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i wouldn't call if it was K2 either, but its not? heh

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so KTs is genreally a call and KTo a fold in this spot in your book?

[danjohncochane]

I doubt i'd call here with K10o, possibly squeeze though.
K10s i thnk is generally a squeeze&gt;call&gt;fold

[J_C]

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LOL
am i getting leveled here?

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Not intentionally. I just think that with KTs you are calling pre to connect with a flush or a straight and win a big pot. Clearly you have to be very wary of K high or T high flops given preflop action. Is that particularly controversial?

[CopTHIS]

Assuming UTG and the CO are decent I'm pretty sure that the large majority of players could not call PF and show a profit on the hand itself.