Attention Bothunters!

[DeathDonkey]

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the freedom of this technology, a supposedly illegal technology is absurd.

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As a poker player, I don't like the bots because I see how it will affect my ability to make money at poker. But as a logical person and programmer, I definitely disagree with the above. People that make bots are not evil, and they are definitely not stupid. Online poker itself is in a gray area for legality, and all the tools we take for granted, PokerTracker, PAHUD, autohotkey scripts, are shades of gray themselves.

None of these tools, including bots, are any more legal or illegal to write code for, practice with, or own. They only become so when used on a poker site because the poker sites have rules they have established against certain types of technology. They have said PT is ok and bots are not, for instance, so that is why we have the higher ground on trying to get rid of them, because they explicitly violate rules we abide by. But the "freedom of this technology" is here to stay and thankfully so - anyone can code almost anything they want, it's only how they use it that matters.

Put it another way: if PokerStars tomorrow said "bots are fine because they are only carrying out the instructions of their owner and we recognize no difference between those entities" then I would expect a 2+2 forum on bot-making and producing. The skill would be in improving the bot to its most efficient form. Obviously PokerStars isn't going to say this and we are moral people who play within the rules, but people that think bot-making is immoral because it gives an advantage to someone that they couldn't have in a casino don't understand that internet poker has its own rules. This isn't an ethical issue, it's only an issue because we'd like sites to enforce their rules that we abide by. I have no shame in saying I'm jealous of bot makers/users but I won't allow myself to break the rules so I have two choices: get over it and break the rules anyway, or try and stop the bots because I want that money for myself. I've made my choice but I don't hate bot makers/users for the choice they made, that's silly.

-DeathDonkey

[JacksonTens]

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Online poker itself is in a gray area for legality, and all the tools we take for granted, PokerTracker, PAHUD, autohotkey scripts, are shades of gray themselves.

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I fail to recognise the shades of grey, PT and PA are freely accessible, and many sites build features specifically for these programs so as to gain more customers.

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None of these tools, including bots, are ... illegal to write code for, ... or own. They only become so when used on a poker site

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Exactly they are wrong. Bot users are breaking the rules in order to gain money in exactly the same way as a thief breaks into a house and steals a DVD player. 'They are breaking the rules to make money'

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but people that think bot-making is immoral because it gives an advantage to someone that they couldn't have in a casino don't understand that internet poker has its own rules.

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You have contradicted yourself here. Botmaking is clearly both unethical and against the rules, this is not even an issue.

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I have no shame in saying I'm jealous of bot makers/users

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I fail to see why anyone would envy a cheat

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so I have two choices: get over it and break the rules anyway, or try and stop the bots because I want that money for myself. I've made my choice but I don't hate bot makers/users for the choice they made, that's silly.


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Well I'm glad we're on the same page here, however hatred is not my motivation, it is a waste of energy. Evening the playing field was what I had in mind...

JT

[DeathDonkey]

Before I played online poker I played a lot of online video games. I remember in Everquest (an MMORPG) people would from time to time find ways to hack the server to gain advantages like seeing the entire map, getting extra money for their account, etc. The game makers would quickly try and fix these hacks so no one gained an unfair advantage. Were these hackers "breaking into a house and stealing a DVD player"?

Of course not, there is no law about what you are allowed to do in an online computer game and what you aren't. There are only rules that are determined by the owner of the game that they believe are the fair ones. If people disagree with those rules then they will try to break them as they see fit, and they will either get away with it or the rule-makers will figure them out and hopefully find a way to stop them.

If someone breaks into your house and he gets caught, he will go to jail. If someone makes a bot that is good at online poker and he gets caught, what exactly do you think will happen?

One last example, WPEX has said they don't want people using PAHUD or PokerTracker to track their opponents, so they have fixed their hand histories to not include player names. I can go right now to PT forums and many other places and find programs people have written that allow you to put the names back in those hand histories, circumventing the rules of WPEX. Are these people cheating and immoral?

-DeathDonkey

[DING-DONG YO]

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Are these people cheating and immoral?

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yes, they're breaking the T&C of the site to gain an unfair advantage. No better than botting IMO.

[JacksonTens]

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Are these people cheating and immoral?


[/ QUOTE ] yes, they're breaking the T&C of the site to gain an unfair advantage. No better than botting IMO.

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Yes, I thought this would be obvious DD. Also in response to your videogame reference, Isn;t it obvious these people are cheating? Perhaps they are not stealing but they are definately cheating however the fact is that:

When money is involved cheating does become stealing, and one could argue that any form of cheating is in fact stealing.

JT

[MrGatorade]

I hate bots... But the bots on FTP have offically been destroyed on my list and were found to be botting and subsiquently banned from the site. FTP = Good effort and so forth. OP go to my site and read a little bit about who the bots are on UB and AP. The sites absolutly dont care that the bots are there and you can even sit and play with the bot and see for yourself. Bots = Rake + starting games in the 30/60 6max bots case = Ub and AP dont care because there traffic and game selection is almost nill at that level anyhow. Media has been contacted and story is being done about the bots and the sites take on it and what they do about the problem. Ub and AP offical response is they dont have bots which is ludicrise. FTP when asked said they would investigate and they did and for months and magically right before the FTP interview with "media" all bots on list and some other suspected bots not on list were subsiquently found to be using bots and were destroyed. More to come on this on my site in a couple weeks as there are still ends that need to be tied up. FTP actually did well in getting rid of these guys for the fairness of the games and to not allow the negative attention that the NL bots got on here. 2+2 is one thing but the national media is another. Great things are about to happen with the bots and I am excited... You will be too unless your using a bot.

-Crazy Mike (MrGatorade)

[MrGatorade]

I hate bots... But the bots on FTP have officially been destroyed on my list and were found to be botting and subsequently banned from the site. FTP = Good effort and so forth. OP, go to my site and read a little bit about which the bots are on UB and AP. The sites absolutely don’t care that the bots are there and you can even sit and play with the bot and see for yourself. Bots = Rake + starting games in the 30/60 6max bots case = Ub and AP don’t care because there traffic and game selection is almost nil at that level anyhow. Media has been contacted and story is being done about the bots and the sites take on it and what they do about the problem. Ub and AP official response is they don’t have bots, which is ludicrous. FTP when asked said they would investigate and they did and for months and magically right before the FTP interview with "media" all bots on list and some other suspected bots not on list were subsequently found to be using bots and were destroyed. More to come on this on my site in a couple weeks as there are still ends that need to be tied up. FTP actually did well in getting rid of these guys for the fairness of the games and to not allow the negative attention that the NL bots got on here. 2+2 is one thing but the national media is another. Great things are about to happen with the bots and I am excited... You will be too unless your using a bot.

-Crazy Mike (MrGatorade)

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate bots... But the bots on FTP have officially been destroyed on my list and were found to be botting and subsequently banned from the site. FTP = Good effort and so forth. OP, go to my site and read a little bit about which the bots are on UB and AP. The sites absolutely don’t care that the bots are there and you can even sit and play with the bot and see for yourself. Bots = Rake + starting games in the 30/60 6max bots case = Ub and AP don’t care because there traffic and game selection is almost nil at that level anyhow. Media has been contacted and story is being done about the bots and the sites take on it and what they do about the problem. Ub and AP official response is they don’t have bots, which is ludicrous. FTP when asked said they would investigate and they did and for months and magically right before the FTP interview with "media" all bots on list and some other suspected bots not on list were subsequently found to be using bots and were destroyed. More to come on this on my site in a couple weeks as there are still ends that need to be tied up. FTP actually did well in getting rid of these guys for the fairness of the games and to not allow the negative attention that the NL bots got on here. 2+2 is one thing but the national media is another. Great things are about to happen with the bots and I am excited... You will be too unless your using a bot.

-Crazy Mike (MrGatorade)

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(Crazy) mike,

you are no longer alone in your quest to destroy bots. in addition to FTP's removal of known bots, the following sites have published listed bots

Bot site list

take solace [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Barron

[DING-DONG YO]

lollers

[DcifrThs]

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lollers

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i couldn't help myself. i get caught on that EVERY time and like 80% of the time i listen to the whole thing.

thats my first [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

sorry mike ... no hard feelings and next time i'm out in the commerce, we can play some HUHU!

Barron