Is "Overplaying Aces" A Myth

[1MoreFish4U]

One of the common themes in books & articles is that AA in & of itself is not a great hand & can get you into all kinds of trouble in LO8.

I wonder what the experience of the members has been.

In over 500k tracked hands of LO8, AA is far and away the biggest % winner I play.

When played aggressively they serve o limit the number of players often enough that they often win on without a showdown, on their own unimproved, or with as little as 2 pair. In addition, they can improve for low, flushes, str8s, sets & boats.

Often, the trouble with aces can be that players who have read that you can get in trouble with aces, slow down in the face of any aggression, or when they dont flop a great hand.

I am not saying that there arent times to let go, but a good player should get better at sensing those times based on the texture of the board and the habits of the opposition.

Thought - go ahead & flame away. For those with PT, if you go to your General Info tab, to Categories, and then add some categories like AA, A2 - less AA, A3 - less AA,A2 etc - you might find the results surprising.

[Murakawa]

Often aces makes top two or a set against someone with just the nut low draw, and when their low misses you rake it in. IMO playing aces properly depends on your read of your opponent. If they called a raise and the flop comes 379, you'll often find that they have A2 and no high, and often you'll have AA2 and quarter them or scoop. One of the best cards you can see on the turn is a 9, it is unlikely to give them trips, and they have missed their low. The nut two pair is usually only good if they are convinced that their two pair is good or if they only have a low draw. Sometimes if you bet they'll call down with a naked A2 and you scoop or quarter 'em. Top boat is always good. But if the flop comes 9TJs and there is action I'm out of there.

[Buzz]

1MoreFish4U - A pair of aces within a hand is one of the best two card combinations you can have in Omaha-8.

Nobody, to the best of my knowledge, is recommending you discard a starting hand because it has a pair of aces. A pair of aces is an asset in a starting hand.

And about three times out of four, when you have a pair of aces, at least one of them will have one or two cards of the same suit, giving rise to another of the best two card combinations you can have within a starting hand in Omaha-8, a suited ace. (Or the hand with the pair of aces might even have two of these ace-suited combos).

And there are various wheel cards that go well with a pair of aces. You might have a deuce and/or trey, and or four, or a trey + four, or a trey + five, or a four + five. These are also all fine combos to have within a hand. And one of the aces can also fit well with an honor card to make a high straight.

So it gladdens one's heart to look down and see a pair of aces as the first two cards dealt.

But then when the flop is
7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], in a full game, unless you have an A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],X[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] combo, (or maybe another X[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],Y[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] combo and know what you're doing) your pair of aces turns to dung.

Or when the flop is K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], in a full game, unless you also have a king (or maybe a pair of deuces), your pair of aces turns to dung.

Or when the flop is 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], in a full game, unless you also have a five (or maybe a pair of fours, treys, or deuces), your pair of aces also turns to dung.

I could go on and on. There are a myriad of flops that will not fit your hand when it contains a pair of aces. (It's different when you're playing heads-up or short handed).

And then, at least in a full game where a number of your opponents have also seen the flop, when your aces or your other cards don't fit well with the flop, you must fold those lovely aces.

When you don't, you're "overplaying your aces."

It's a very common mistake, made especially by some players who play a lot of Texas hold 'em and don't switch their thinking to Omaha-8-mode fast enough.

As an aside, in a full game, AA is not the very best two card combo you can have within a hand in a full ring game of limit-Omaha-8.<ul type="square">A2 suited,
A2 off-suit,
A3 suited,
A3 off-suit, and
A4 suited[/list]are all better two-card combos to have within a hand in a full ring game than AA. And you can overplay those great two-card combos too. (AA is very close to, but slightly behind A4 suited in a full ring game of limit-Omaha-8).

Buzz

[Truthiness24]

Aces are (of course) going to show as your strongest winners by percentage on PT. They aren't chopped liver -- they are still the strongest pairing to have (with A2).

I think that the point of the folks who say that people "overplay aces" is that with optimal play of aces one can make even more money with them ... and that lots of us play aces suboptimally through overvaluing them and then acting on that overvaluation.

[fishyak]

In low limit live O/8, AA has proven thorny for this relative newcomer. Raising PF does not get many people out at Commerce even though I play comparatively tight. I am getting better at getting away from bad flops. And so much depends on the other two cards in my hand. If I don't have a Plan B and I've raised PF, now I have to throw away a hand that is twice as expensive to play as the normal starting hand. High risk for possibly high reward.

[2handed]

AA in a loose passive full ring game where an average of 4 or more players see the flop is a hand to be played carefully and should not be raised preflop simply because you have AA. Without at least one good low sidecard or two connected high cards it is usually a call or even sometimes in rarer occassions a muck depending on the preflop action. This changes of course in shorter more aggressive games like the ones found online where you raise and pretty much 3bet any AA hand because of how vital it is to get the pot heads up where your AA makes you a favorite vs. nearly any hand. AA is much easier to play on paired boards and unconnected high card boards in these games, and has been profitable for me since aggressive opponents tend to come after you on flops like K92r or QQ8, if they read you for a low card hand.

Heads up AA should often be used as bluffcatcher in these spots, but of course given a solid read it can be thrown away there as well. Out of Position against an aggro opponent it is often better to check the turn or the river and let him bluff on boards that are likely to have missed his hand, and that he knows missed alot of your preflop raising and 3betting hands if you are properly playing hands like A23J, 2345 suited, etc aggresively. Inducing bluffs is important here, since people love to peel the flop and even the turn with very little when you are betting and then when you slowdown try to take the pot away if all the draws blanked out.

Remember sometimes your opponents will not call you on the last two streets with a hand a worse hand than AA, but will bet the same inferior holding if given the opportunity to try and steal the pot. This play is of course very situational, and is meant to be used when your their is no low possible, or the low you made that accompanies your aces is pretty weak.

[TxRedMan]

When someone says that AA is overplayed in LO8, they're correct, but they need to be more specific.

IMO, AA is overplayed in LO8 for several reasons, one of them being the fact that nearly all of us learned hold'em first, and we learned how to play AA fast, especially in LHE. That being said, a lot of your opponents are only recreational LO8 players, they dont play LO8 primarily, thus they overplay AA.

Now all of that has some truth to it, but for it to bear a considerable more amount of accuracy, the type of hand that is overplayed that contains AA is a hand like AA98 or AAK7, AAJ9, etc, etc. For the most part, players dont overplay AA-wheel because even if they overplay their high hand their low hand bails them out. Think about how many times you've fired with your overpair (AA) and been raised on the turn or river and called, winning just the low. That's the distinction that I think needs to be made in an arguement about overplaying AA. Players often misplay one way hands in general, so AA with no low is no different.


Furthermore, AA is much easier to misplay and much more commonly overplayed in multiway pots.


I think if you looked at a sample of 500 random LO8 players you'd find that AAxx with no low is a losing hand in multiway pots. On the rare occasion I find myself in a tough full ring game, I dont have any problem mucking a hand like AAQ9 no suits UTG, b/c it can be so difficult to play out of position against great LO8 players.





-Tex

[Buzz]

Hi Tex - That which you write always makes good sense to me. (I agree with what Truthiness and 2handed have written in this thread too).

[ QUOTE ]
the type of hand that is overplayed that contains AA is a hand like AA98 or AAK7, AAJ9, etc, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]That rang a bell.

I've noticed that certain high combos go down in value when in the same hand with AA. For example you like a starting hand with an ace and a king, so that when you make two pairs with an ace and a pair on the board, you also have a king kicker. Or when you make trip aces you have a king kicker. But when you already have two aces, you don't need that king as a kicker. You'd much rather have an extra wheel card to go with two aces than a king.

So in a way, AA devalues AK and various other high combos. I'm not sure if that makes much sense. (I'd still rather have AAKX than AA9X, but I much prefer AKXY to A9XY).

Buzz

[RobNottsUk]

The problem with AAxx in a loose game, where opponents frequently cold call is that you cannot, move them off hands like 23xx. In a tight game, opponents don't like to cold call, so will be more cautious with hands like A4xx and other poor Lo's.

So, when you catch your Ace for Hi, you generally split the pot... Due to loose nature of opponents, you may easily fail to fold correctly, or fold incorrectly as you'll find it hard to know when you're beat.

Many of my opponents overplay AAxx and end up paying off with 2nd or 3rd best hands both ways, in a pot that they ought not to have seen even the turn card.

AA23 on other hand, rather likes a ALH flop, tset + Nut Lo draw. The loose player will frequently overplay 2nd and 3rd Nut Lo's, generally putting you on A2xx.

[SparkMan]

[ QUOTE ]
In low limit live O/8, AA has proven thorny for this relative newcomer. Raising PF does not get many people out at Commerce even though I play comparatively tight. I am getting better at getting away from bad flops. And so much depends on the other two cards in my hand. If I don't have a Plan B and I've raised PF, now I have to throw away a hand that is twice as expensive to play as the normal starting hand. High risk for possibly high reward.

[/ QUOTE ]

The rake in the $4/8 LO8 at the Commerce is a joke. No flop they take $1. Any pot where there is a flop is raked $3 min.
I won a pot that had $14 in it, minus $3 rake and $1 for the bogus jackpots they have. None of the jackpots get very big which is strange because I think you need quads beaten in the holdem games. I got up and cashed out of the $4/8 LO8 when the dealer took $5 rake and $1 for jackout from a $18 pot. It was probably an error but they don't care.