Third nut flush and ok low $200 PLO8 stars

[GaZaZaZa]

Game is a 6 Max $200 plo8 on stars, main villian is decent however my notes do say he has a big tendency to bet when checked to and continuation bet, and by big tendency i mean far more then what is normally seen on a PLO8 game, however while he does donk off alot of small bets here and there i have almost never seen him go to showdown in a big pot without the goods.
relative stacks are $300

i am in the small blind with as 5s qh 8h... everyone limps, villain is on the button and min raises it, to $4 i call, does anyone here have a problem with this call???

flop come 7h jh 6h, theres $24 in the pot.. so i bet out my traditional bet of $18,(do u guys like this bet) how would you play it??? co calls, who seems to be a bit of a calling station, but also very straight forward, i think if he had the nut flush he would def raise it, and villian calls it, turn comes black two....

whats my move here??? i really however dont want to check it through since i am 90% sure the button would bet big on almost any holding he has, and i just have a gut feeling that if any of the two players had the nut flush, they are both the type to have raised it on the flop... is this the perfect time for a 1/2 pot blocker bet??? or should i just give it up here and now

[I dunno]

PF is fine, especially against the player you describe.

I check call the flop sometimes against somebody like that

At least one of them probably has the NL on the turn. Its close to a toss up between leading and checking I think. It depends mostly on the CO.

[tvent37]

What do you plan on doing if someone raises your blocker especially if the 2nd person just smooth calls? I think checking here is by far the best option ESPECIALLY because he bets so often when checked to. The reason is because I would checkraise if it went check check bet because any decent player would toss A3 especially with no back up if they had to call twice the pot. This is assuming they had A3 and didnt just get a counterfeited A2. Also A4 is going to have a hell of a time calling. Check raising basically scares out any naked A3-A4 hand unless possibly they have a weaker flush to go with it, your only worried about the K.

Checking also allows you to control the pot. This is one of those cases where being 1st to act is a good thing. If your in position you dont know if you are being checked to because you bet and they want a check raise or because they are scared. They HAVE TO speak up if they have some kind of hand. You check and if it checks down EASY value bet on a non pair river, I would put out a blocker at the end instead of a value bet if it paired.

Finally when you check what is likely to be the best hand I dont see why its bad that a player who would bet 90% of his hands in that spot would bet. Think about what 90% entails. You are ahead so much for AT LEAST half and dominating both ways a good deal of the time. I also like the check because to me it looks like a missed attempt at a naked A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] bluff where you were hoping for a high turn card, some kind of A2JJ hand that wants a free card, or an A2 + small flush combo. I think it disguises your hand well.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
whats my move here???

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Gazaza - Have courage and bet the pot. $78?

Keep Ray Zee's principle in mind. The object of the game is to scoop. You have the best chance of scooping if your opponents both fold here.

Sounds like you don't think either of them has a higher flush. If not, the danger to you is one of them continuing and somehow making a full house. You want to give anyone unfavorable odds to try to out-draw you. At the same time, one of them might have a poor low, but a better low than you. You're not going to knock out A3YZ, but perhaps you can knock out A4YZ, 34YZ, or another A5YZ.

In addition, although you're not going to knock out
A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],X[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],Y,Z it's hard for K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],X[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],Y,Z to continue.

Trust in your read, put your whole stack at risk, and make it as tough as you can on your opponents to continue with non nut hands.

If you can't make this play, then you should not have played the starting hand to begin with.

I haven't read any other replies yet. I think we could figure out what you'd have to bet to give anybody unfavorable (half pot) odds to draw for the board to pair, but you also want to knock out any 2nd nut hands for high and 2nd, 3rd, or 4th nut hands for low.

Have courage and bet, hoping to scoop.

Buzz

edit: O.K., I read the other replies. Both posters make good points. I like tvent37's suggestion to check, except that checking puts you in a quandry if you face a big bet coming back at you - and you also miss the opportunity to scoop, or at least you lower your chance of scooping, if they both check behind you.

I still shove here. (I have to admit that my cardiologist would strongly disapprove of me playing this game).

Buzz

[GaZaZaZa]

Thanks guys....
Buzz my only problem with leading out and betting pot is that... well it really is just a read that neither of them have the nuts, while i am fairly confident, in my mind at the time i was saying at least 75% sure, i wouldnt be as such "STUNNED" if one of them did have Ah xH with a low re-draw...and they both have stacks over $300, and hence cover me..... if i doo bet and especially the button does raise, and he is very capable of re-raising a naked nut low, or a low with a worse flush draw, or even a nut low with something like two pair.... then what do i do,... this really isnt the situation where i feel that comfortable, especially with two players that obviously saw something they liked on the flop to commit my entire stack in.. but i know myself and i'll some how convince myself to call (which is what actually did happen,, i bet $60,, co called and button shoved..i made crying call, and co folded--god knows what he had--...with a-3-4-5, 3-5 being hearts....) but i reaaaly didnt like making thaat call either, because i felt i was most likly splitting or being scoooped here...
the problem i see with tvents play.. is that again im lost in the hand... theres to much money in it already to play for pot control, as a pot sized bet by the button means that by the river almost all my stack is in there.. and i really dont like just check calling two big massive bets with decent non nut hands both ways...

[MattS]

This is a tough hand to play in a multiway pot oop. I have often bet such a hand myself on the flop, but I am not sure that it is the best play. Essentially you are hoping to win the pot directly on the flop. If someone raises you can fold. But most of the time someone will call and you will face difficult decisions for your entire stack on the two remaining betting rounds.

Moreover the turn play you have mentioned

[ QUOTE ]
if i doo bet and especially the button does raise, and he is very capable of re-raising a naked nut low, or a low with a worse flush draw, or even a nut low with something like two pair.... then what do i do,...

[/ QUOTE ]

is especially nasty (I know it because I use it myself pretty often [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) and should influence your play on the flop.

Therefore I vote for a check on the flop. You will see how all the other players react before you have to put money in the pot. For example after a bet and a raise you can safely muck your hand. And if all players check you will have controlled the size of the pot and will know that your flush is probably the best for high. Moreover a check disguises the strength of your hand pretty well. These are the same reasons presented by tvent37 to check the turn but should rather be used to determine the best play on the flop imo.

I admit that a check will not simplify your decisions on the turn and river if Button bets. But it is the most flexible line overall imo.

After that turn card I prefer a check-raise because it is the most aggressive move and avoids any tough decision on the river.

[GaZaZaZa]

thanks matts... the reason i am being isnt entirely to win the pot here and now... dont get me wrong its a large part of it, but not the only reason...the other reason is to figure out were i stand, quickly and cheaply... as ive stated before i am FAIRLY confident that both of these opponents would raise a higher flush, co may not raise k-high flush.. which come to think of it is what i suspect he had...so that by betting if i get raised on the flop, to me its an easy lay down, if i dont get raised i assume with a fair, not definate, but fair amount of certainty that i am good.. by checking the flop i am forcing myself to call three big bets, or at least two, on flop and turn, with a mediocer two way hand.... something which i reaaaly dont like and feel comfortable doing, especially in a multi way pot

[MattS]

If you are convinced that your opponents play straightforward and anounce the strength of their hands immediately I agree that a bet will be the best play.

But trickier opponents should just call your flop bet with monsters like A2s-A4s and maybe even with the bare nut flush. They will call also with nut low draw + something. I think betting out directly on the flop is not your best option then.

[Jorge10]

Bet the pot. If they are stupid enough to raise on just a low and no high then good for them, you can get them later. If you bet the pot it screams I got the nut flush and want to get all the money in. Most people with A3 would just call and even that would be a hard decision because most would realize that they are putting it all in the middle with just low hoping you dont have nut nut. I bet the pot here and then see what happens afterwards.