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#11
12-27-2006, 10:40 PM
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Re: I give up, what the H is an atheist?
[ QUOTE ]
Is there a difference between - a) I don't believe god exists. b) I believe god doesn't exist. In any case, would anybody with either of those belief states be classified as an atheist? Seems that way to me. luckyme [/ QUOTE ] It's funny, I was thinking about exactly this distinction a few days ago. If you think (b) you are an atheist. I think the difference is that saying (a) rather than (b) leaves open the possibility that either: 1. You have no opinion on the matter because you've never considered a gods existence. or 2. You have no opinion because you think it's not possible to ever find evidence one way or another. This is what Dawkins referred to as "Permanent Agnostic in Principle (PAP)". or 3. You have no evidence either way but think you might be able to get some and answer the question eventually. This is what Dawkins referred to as "Temporary Agnostic in Practice (TAP)". Incidently, with either 2 or 3 you can still have a circumstancial opinion of the probability of a god's existence. 
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#12
12-27-2006, 10:47 PM
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Re: I give up, what the H is an atheist?
If I say I'm going to work at 7:30, what I really mean is that the probability of me being at work at 7:30 is extremely high, barring things like extreme illness, car problems, or a nuke hitting the city where I live.
If your belief is "I don't believe in any god, although I concede that a lack of gods cannot be proven and that there is a small chance I am wrong," then you're an atheist. To lump yourself in with people whose entire opinion is "I don't know" is as absurd as lumping me in with a nihlist/extreme skeptic for admitting that I might not get to work on time.
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#13
12-27-2006, 10:51 PM
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Re: I give up, what the H is an atheist?
[ QUOTE ]
If I say I'm going to work at 7:30, what I really mean is that the probability of me being at work at 7:30 is extremely high, barring things like extreme illness, car problems, or a nuke hitting the city where I live. If your belief is "I don't believe in any god, although I concede that a lack of gods cannot be proven and that there is a small chance I am wrong," then you're an atheist. To lump yourself in with people whose entire opinion is "I don't know" is as absurd as lumping me in with a nihlist/extreme skeptic for admitting that I might not get to work on time. [/ QUOTE ] Thats more like it but suggesting that I dont believe gazebalob exists is the same as I believe gazebalob doesn't exist is silly. chez
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#14
12-27-2006, 10:59 PM
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Re: I give up, what the H is an atheist?
[ QUOTE ]
Thats more like it but suggesting that I dont believe gazebalob exists is the same as I believe gazebalob doesn't exist is silly. [/ QUOTE ] Why? The only way I see a meaningful difference is if you haven't heard of gazebalob.
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#15
12-27-2006, 11:01 PM
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Re: I give up, what the H is an atheist?
Till now I had never heard of gazebalobs, yet I didn't believe in them. Now, I have heard of them and I see no reason whatsoever to change my opinion. I feel exactly the same about gods.
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#16
12-27-2006, 11:04 PM
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Re: I give up, what the H is an atheist?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Thats more like it but suggesting that I dont believe gazebalob exists is the same as I believe gazebalob doesn't exist is silly. [/ QUOTE ] Why? The only way I see a meaningful difference is if you haven't heard of gazebalob. [/ QUOTE ] Okay I've writen down the name of something you've never heard, lets call it X. Do you believe X exists, X doesn't exist or do you have no beliefs about the existence of X. chez
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#17
12-27-2006, 11:06 PM
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Re: I give up, what the H is an atheist?
[ QUOTE ]
If I say I'm going to work at 7:30, what I really mean is that the probability of me being at work at 7:30 is extremely high, barring things like extreme illness, car problems, or a nuke hitting the city where I live. If your belief is "I don't believe in any god, although I concede that a lack of gods cannot be proven and that there is a small chance I am wrong," then you're an atheist. To lump yourself in with people whose entire opinion is "I don't know" is as absurd as lumping me in with a nihlist/extreme skeptic for admitting that I might not get to work on time. [/ QUOTE ] Please note that I pointed out (well, implied) that (b) is a subset of (a) so you can say that and be an atheist.
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#19
12-27-2006, 11:18 PM
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Re: I give up, what the H is an atheist?
[ QUOTE ]
It's been said before and perhaps it's a bit overused, but there shouldn't even be such things as "atheists". So I guess I believe c) I don't believe atheists exist. [/ QUOTE ] Until a few thousand years ago, everyone was an atheist. Non-atheism has peaked and is naturally progressing back towards zero.
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#20
12-27-2006, 11:36 PM
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Re: I give up, what the H is an atheist?
The confusion arises because you haven't defined God clearly. Assuming a definition which allows some kind of supreme being which would leave no detectable trace of its presence, the statements are equivalent because there are no grounds on which to judge that it doesn't exist. Therefore you simply don't believe in it.
In the case of a specific God, say Allah, it is possible, after considering the evidence, to form the opinion that Islam is false. For instance, if the Qu'ran contains contradictions (which it does) and yet adherents claim it to be a literal transcription of the word of God, then it is reasonable to conclude that Allah (as conceived of by his worshipers, at least) doesn't exist. This evidence-based conclusion is distinct from a simple lack of belief.
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