simple hand vs good player

surfdoc · #1 10-06-2007, 12:23 PM

So lately I have been playing with a few good players and had situations where we basically both play perfectly against each other. I am wondering how to maximize the value in spots like this. Sorry if this turns out to be basic.

Online midlimit 6m game. Villian raises MP, I 3 bet AA from the SB, villian caps.

Flop K74r.

Is there any better way to play this than to just CR the flop and go from there?

dangerfish · #2 10-06-2007, 12:36 PM

I think c raising flop is your best play. Too bad the flop is monotone but I think you have to jam it here and hope for action. Pot is reasonably big preflop so it's not like your getting no value here.

sonartec · #3 10-07-2007, 07:36 AM

I dont know about CR here, I mean the only action you are going to get is from AK and KK, and he will go striaght into call down mode with QQ, JJ, TT.

his range is pretty small here, if he is solid and doesnt get out of line preflop

Sometimes i check call flop and try to bet/3bet the turn.

dangerfish · #4 10-07-2007, 11:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know about CR here, I mean the only action you are going to get is from AK and KK, and he will go striaght into call down mode with QQ, JJ, TT.

his range is pretty small here, if he is solid and doesnt get out of line preflop

Sometimes i check call flop and try to bet/3bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he goes into calldown mode with any pair then check raising flop and betting atw is the best line. How are you going to bet to 3 bet bet turn if he has these hands? I think you need try and use the pot size to get him to make a bad calldown.

DeathDonkey · #5 10-07-2007, 05:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont know about CR here, I mean the only action you are going to get is from AK and KK, and he will go striaght into call down mode with QQ, JJ, TT.

his range is pretty small here, if he is solid and doesnt get out of line preflop

Sometimes i check call flop and try to bet/3bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he goes into calldown mode with any pair then check raising flop and betting atw is the best line. How are you going to bet to 3 bet bet turn if he has these hands? I think you need try and use the pot size to get him to make a bad calldown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree with Dangerfish.

Isn't it funny that there is zero chance anyone is ever folding TT+ here? I'm not saying its not correct to call down there I'm just saying I remember playing 5/10 6m like 2-3 years ago and it would have been laughable bad to continue past the flop vs a "standard TAG" then. Everyone's a maniac now [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

ILOVEPOKER929 · #6 10-08-2007, 05:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Isn't it funny that there is zero chance anyone is ever folding TT+ here? I'm not saying its not correct to call down there I'm just saying I remember playing 5/10 6m like 2-3 years ago and it would have been laughable bad to continue past the flop vs a "standard TAG" then. Everyone's a maniac now [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I just wanted to point out that folding QQ right away on the flop is still gonna be the best play in a vacuum vs many tags in this spot. In fact there are still enough of these tag types that we should all be on the lookout for them so we dont have to pay off all the way in these spots. I can think of 3 tags off the top of my head where calling down a flop check/raise with QQ is just giving money away: Surfdoc, Thehip41, and me.

I think thats why Surfdoc brought this thread up cuz its hard for our flop check/raise to not be exploitable in this spot since the kind of tag like Surf or me will have Kx+ or better in this spot every time. But theres a reason why we can be this exploitable....becuz nobody folds 88+ or better in this spot.

In the rare case when were against an opponent than can fold a hand like QQ here, then there has to be a better strategy than check/raising the flop.

Choosing between these lines should be fine:

1) Donk flop cuz nobody believes donkbets

2) Check/call donk turn

3) Check/call, check/call, donk river

4) Check/call, check/call, check/raise river

5) check/call, check/raise.

Surfdoc, I think this is an excellent thread simply becuz youre encouraging thought in a spot where most people dont think anymore.

The reason I quoted Deathdonkey's statement is cuz I agree with him. Nobody is folding TT+ here. It is my contention that against a non-insignificant population of tags at the mid-limits, we can makes these folds. Of course as I write this, I am reminded of a statement I once heard Clarkmeister's say: "The more 'correct' folds that I look for, the less money I seem to make."

This game is fun isnt it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

gaming_mouse · #7 10-07-2007, 01:22 PM

surfdoc,

are you assuming:

1. If you cr flop, he'll cd with JJ or better?
2. If you cc flop, he'll bf (or possibly check) JJ/QQ on turn?

surfdoc · #8 10-08-2007, 02:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
surfdoc,

are you assuming:

1. If you cr flop, he'll cd with JJ or better?
2. If you cc flop, he'll bf (or possibly check) JJ/QQ on turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't know. What would all you guys do if a TAG 3 bet from the blinds and then CRd a Kxx flop. Are you taking 99-QQ to showdown? This guy folded to my flop bet and didn't even peel. I don't think he caps me too light since he has a stat read for sure of me being tightish. So, I have to wonder if he just mucked one of these hands.

That is the reason for this thread. I think that when playing with 2p2ers there is a need to mix up lines. The TAG flop CR on this board is "okay buddy lets play a big pot." It is just too retarded to start CRing this flop with 88 just to mix up our play and get calldowns with our monsters when we have been capped preflop. We are just crushed by an avg TAGs capping range.

I think at this point there are too many of us playing the same. A mix of c/c, c/c, c/r and c/c, c/c, donk, and c/c, donk are intuitively more profitable since so many TAGs will at least fire the second barrel and even if the turn gets checked through we will very often get paid on the river.

HOWMANY · #9 10-08-2007, 02:51 AM

If you c/c flop and turn somehow checks through then I'm assuming you mean c/r river because betting would be horrible.

surfdoc · #10 10-08-2007, 12:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you c/c flop and turn somehow checks through then I'm assuming you mean c/r river because betting would be horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think horrible is a little strong a word here. He may look me up with AQ/AJ that won't bet, and occasionally make an ill advised bluff-raise.