The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot

[BHokie1]

Pudge good stuff as always, and Lacky nice response.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

nice post Pudge.

I play few SnG's anymore, but I still play some MTT and I am mostly learning to play cash.

One problem that I am learning to overcome is playing weaker starting hands KQ, QJ, JT, etc and hitting top pair, but not top kicker. You need to remember that when you play these hands you will almost never have the best hand. So when you get resistance you need to realize you're in trouble and you should probably get away from the hand... but this is not always easy and is, imo, a tough adjustment when opening up your starting hand requirements.

However, as Pudge says, it is important to your game to learn to do this.

[darom03]

[ QUOTE ]
[...]I think it is reasonable to look at why people are regularly passing up spots +CEV spots and with all the information available why no one on the STTF has ever really looked into this.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are some who have looked into this in great extend. I am currently investigating my early play in order to find more +CEV spots.

I got inspired by the two following articles) on a competing site no less!):
An alternative take on early play
Alternative take part II

The gist of it is that you might pass up some $EV by not taking it from the fish by challenging post flop with marginal typical -$EV hands.

By that reasoning I have now begun looking at marginal hands (small pairs, suited connectors, obvious steal spots with garbage) in the early stages of the tournament.

[sean457j]

I agree with the sentiment of your post - that it is important not to always just to accept received wisdom about how to play an SNG, or indeed poker, and to understand why you are performing certain actions and what you hope to gain by a result of them.

In the examples you gave of the two hands involving DannyOcean and darinvg I would agree there is a case for playing the hands for a few reasons. One of the more important ones could be to gain post flop skills. This is no reflection on DannyOcean or darinvg, but if you get yourself into these situations in the early part of an SNG, then you are able to quickly learn what hands you should be mucking to c/bets, what players you should call to see what they do on the turn etc.

Even though you may say that it is negative ev for a player who is still learning to do this, he will gain an experience for himself why this is true in certain situations. If the result is that 3% is knocked off the ROI of a player, but the result over a period of time is that he gains a few post flop skills, then that can be no bad thing.

[suzzer99]

I play more hands early and gamble early more than most I think. The key is knowing when to slow down postflop because you might be behind, and when to lay it down altogether. At least for me that could only come with a ton of experience, and a whole lot of bad calls along the way.

[lacky]

[ QUOTE ]
Very interesting discussion. My own take on the matter is much like lacky, and I think failing to exploit bad players early is giving up a lot of $EV.

The tradeoff is basicly: How much $EV do we gain by doubling up early vs. not - and how often do we lose all the $EV when we get stacked trying to double up early.


Knowing the results of these two queries, would be helpful:

Query 1 - Doubling up early:

What is my ROI on SNG's, where I at some point have double the starting-chips at some time during levels 1-2-3?

Query 2 - NOT doubling up early:

What is my ROI on SNG's, where I at NO point have double the starting-chips at some time during levels 1-2-3?


Also knowing how often we get stacked trying to double up early with less that premium hands would be nice, but is much harder to get an accurate number for.

I'll try to get the good people over at the pokertracker Postgres forum to help with the query.

[/ QUOTE ]

rvg did alot of stuff with this a couple years ago

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...0332&page=

[donkraft]

[ QUOTE ]
In moshman's book he explains why doubling up early and taking risks doesn't work.

The reason is that doubling up early does not double your tournement equity.

He gave an example of two other guys in your sng being all in, one eliminated, and one doubling up. And he stated that in the long run BOTH lose from the situation, compared to the player that avoided the all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read the book, and the example is about taking a coinflip early.

Please re-read what I wrote in my post. Doubling up early does not double your $EV, but it does INCREASE your $EV. Finding the right balance between risk/reward is the key.

[DannyOcean_]

I think this whole issue is blown up too much. In the same way that a LAG can beat the same NL cash game a TAG can, players who play differently in the opening stages can also be +EV in SnG's. We may disagree on certain plays, but both types can be winners. One style deep stacked is not necessarily 'better' than another. In late stages, ICM dominates, but early stages are open for debate.

i'm a bit looser than most on the forum early in the SnG. I remember one post where in the first level, a guy limped A7s in late position with three limpers before him, and had a question about his postflop play. Several people told him to fold pf! Huh?! I was astonished, really, i feel limping Axs behind multiple limpers early is money. I was really perplexed at what i saw as nittinessw. But this doesn't mean players who are tighter than me are wrong, they just play differently.

It's an interesting debate to have, and hopefully people will have an open mind. I've tightened up a bunch due to advice from this forum, but i'm still looser than most.

[Pudge714]

Scotty,
I think higher buyins would have people restealing lighter, lower buyins tend to have more passive cally players.

Lacky,
Nice post.

DannyOcean,
That is a good point, but people don't go into MSNL threads and say a LAG is making a terrible spew preflop.

[DevinLake]

Having played cash for a while now, I've really lost that fear of getting called. I think that is something a lot of tournament players and especially sng players have.

Get called is not the end of the word, especially if you play well post flop and especially if you have position.

Like pudge said, people will peel light from the blinds and this is a good thing. You just have to learn to recognize which players are peeling light, and figure out the good spots to put moves on these players. A lot of this comes from experience. Raptor comes in here occasionally and suggests that every snger take a break from sngs and play some 6max cash. I suspect this is the reason.

You will eventually lose that fear of getting called (again, especially by the blinds when you will have position), and you post flop game will improve to the point that you could probably pwn most regulars at most levels of sngs.

But, this is all very dependent on buy-in unfortunately. At the lowest buy-ins there is so much value in not only staying out of the way to let others clash with their mediocre hands, but also to preserve you chip stack because all you need is one good hand against these droolers and you double. You also have a lot less FE, so FPSY (for lack of a better phrase), will often just be spew. However, as you move up in stakes this can change.

A good place to look at this a bit is in the weekly trout games. Usually when I play these now a days, I just lag it up at first. Opening a lot of pots and 3-betting a lot. I do this because I know these guys will fold. Not because they are bad, or I'm better than them, but because I'm making moves with position. So, they rightfully should be folding a lot, even if they think I'm full of it.

As you move up in stakes, you will find more the of the thinking players you find in the STTF trout games. So, you can start adding a little more deceptiveness to your preflop hand requirements. This really shouldn't come at the expensive of fold equity later when the blinds get big.

As you move up people obviously understand the push/fold game better. However, a reasonable opponent is going to realize that just because you were looser than average in the early stages, doesn't mean you are pushing too loose with the blinds higher. You could still be playing optimally at the end game as well.

So, all that written, and I'd still suggest a very ABC type approach for most players in STTF. Until you take raptor's advice and try some cash for a bit, you probably won't have the post flop skills to really make mixing it up more early that worth while or even profitable.

edit: ugh, just read lacky's post in which he uses experience to say the opposite of what i did. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]