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  #31  
Old 11-08-2007, 04:23 PM
Gramps Gramps is offline
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Default Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe

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Another thing is, I don't think it's fair to assign Big Joe a random hand here. I think it should be heavily weighted towards hands in the lower spectrum.

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Yeah, in reality I think it's closer to 35-40% equity here on the flop against villan's true range. It'd probably be a better problem if you were against some random who's thinking you have little/no insight into (instead of someone who plays a bazillion SNGs/year) - then where do the check PF & fold flop thresholds lie?
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  #32  
Old 11-08-2007, 04:27 PM
Gramps Gramps is offline
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Default Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe

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In the moment it may throw you off esp. if you're not playing many SNGs, but against a good player who knows you're a good player, not shoving PF with J9 and then folding to a push is terrible. Even on that bad board (and I say "bad" b/c of the 3 and 4 as much as the hearts) my guess is you have plenty of equity to call getting close to 3:1. I'd be surprised if he had a card higher than a ten, though it makes sense to do it with some stronger hands for the heck of it since a good player is probably going to call your complete-push too...

...unless you have like 62o or something, if you were going to call a push, it's fine to just shove PF. A good player is folding (pre-flop or postflop) after completing here about 0% of the time, why encourage them (and others watching) to make future foolio plays against you?

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I suspect that the SB should stop and go with 100% of their range for comprehensiveness reasons. In return the BB should push PF only with hands where there is almost no chance of a flop in which they cannot call an allin from the SB against any 2 cards. Also the SB should of course push the flop 100% of the time.

The point is that the SB is giving the BB a free chance to avoid a -EV spot. Depending on the BB's hand, they may want to take this option. The cool thing about it from the SB's perspective is that it helps the SB to simply give the BB a favorable option. Usually in poker it never makes sense to give your opponent a clear option to avoid losing EV, however in these types of cases it does. It's like collusion somehow! I find it very beautiful!!!!!!!

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Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I'm biased here because IME the stop n' go narrows said villan's range downward (as it does most good players) - it's a more interesting problem without that fact/assumption.

Edit: Joey, time to haze people and start stop n'going with 100% range here...
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  #33  
Old 11-08-2007, 06:09 PM
Pudge714 Pudge714 is offline
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Default Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe

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If J9 is a call here, then what flops are you folding? And how can shoving pf when you're a favorite be worse than checking and folding any flop when you know he's pushing 100% of the time and it's extremely likely he has a worse starting hand?

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I was just thinking this. Against an unknown I think a preflop check is standard because he is more likely to check fold preflop than he is to limp fold preflop. Barring timing out or misclicking Joey is never folding postflop. Basically if I check back preflop it is so I can correctly fold some flops when I gain more information. The problem is I have no idea what Joey's range so I don't know what flops I should be folding if I can fold any of them. There are certain hands where I would need to call on any flop probably any pair and any ace high hand maybe even wider. Those hands are more or less irrelevant. Presumably I should be checking back every hand I can correctly fold at least one flop on.
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  #34  
Old 11-08-2007, 07:00 PM
curtains curtains is offline
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Default Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe

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If J9 is a call here, then what flops are you folding? And how can shoving pf when you're a favorite be worse than checking and folding any flop when you know he's pushing 100% of the time and it's extremely likely he has a worse starting hand?

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I was just thinking this. Against an unknown I think a preflop check is standard because he is more likely to check fold preflop than he is to limp fold preflop. Barring timing out or misclicking Joey is never folding postflop. Basically if I check back preflop it is so I can correctly fold some flops when I gain more information. The problem is I have no idea what Joey's range so I don't know what flops I should be folding if I can fold any of them. There are certain hands where I would need to call on any flop probably any pair and any ace high hand maybe even wider. Those hands are more or less irrelevant. Presumably I should be checking back every hand I can correctly fold at least one flop on.

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correct, I think you said it better than me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #35  
Old 11-08-2007, 08:46 PM
xPeru xPeru is offline
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Default Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe

Does Joey have a 100% range here? Well, I've seen him do this with KK, so I think he does. In which case, the equity swings against calling and a fold is good.

This makes me think that this shortstack stop n go move is only going to be long term profitable if it is done with 100%. Am I wrong?
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  #36  
Old 11-08-2007, 09:38 PM
rakemeplz rakemeplz is offline
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Default Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe

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Does Joey have a 100% range here? Well, I've seen him do this with KK, so I think he does. In which case, the equity swings against calling and a fold is good.

This makes me think that this shortstack stop n go move is only going to be long term profitable if it is done with 100%. Am I wrong?

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I'm sure he does it with big hands in order to improve his fold equity for his range (and its not a bad play). I'm guessing some flops he could consider check folding. I'm also guessing its possibly better to push certain hands preflop, I'm not sure. I think this is an interesting spot...but im not so good with the analysis.
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  #37  
Old 11-08-2007, 09:59 PM
curtains curtains is offline
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Default Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does Joey have a 100% range here? Well, I've seen him do this with KK, so I think he does. In which case, the equity swings against calling and a fold is good.

This makes me think that this shortstack stop n go move is only going to be long term profitable if it is done with 100%. Am I wrong?

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I'm sure he does it with big hands in order to improve his fold equity for his range (and its not a bad play). I'm guessing some flops he could consider check folding. I'm also guessing its possibly better to push certain hands preflop, I'm not sure. I think this is an interesting spot...but im not so good with the analysis.

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Anytime you push a strong hand preflop, it lowers your EV when you stop and go. Of course I'm talking in purely game theory terms.
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  #38  
Old 11-08-2007, 10:37 PM
kyro kyro is offline
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Default Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe

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tahts like the only flop you have to fold against that move by him.

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^
|
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  #39  
Old 11-09-2007, 04:07 AM
pineapple888 pineapple888 is offline
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Default Re: PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe

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coolest sng hand + replies i've seen in awhile. i probably call because well, i like calling.

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What he said. When somebody's nth leveling, I just go back to the first level.

If bigjoe did this with KK or whatever and potentially let me get away from 82o well then he outleveled me.

Oh yeah. Almost forgot. What it do, y'all? [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]
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