PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe

[curtains]

checking preflop should be best with the idea of folding whenever you don't have enough equity against a random hand on the flop. Of course this isn't easy to calculate in the heat of the moment but should almost certainly be the best play.

The correct play here is to fold because you are clearly -EV against a random hand. By checking preflop you gave yourself an extra option to avoid a -EV spot, that you wouldn't have if you simply pushed. In return you gave up absolutely nothing.

So for all those who say "just push preflop" I believe that in the strictly theoretical sense, and based on the fact that bigjoe is pushing pretty much every flop, they are just wrong. However pushing preflop is probably better from a practical standpoint.

This concept works better with really weak hands like 83o and puts both players in a situation where they can make mutually beneficial plays. You are happy that he doesn't push and lets you see a flop, he is very happy when you fold, even if your equity against his range is negative, because his survival is more important than the few extra chips he gains.

Forgive me I don't know precise prize structure, so if there is some extra benefit that goes to you for knocking him out, then the above may be a bit faulty. But the concept I'm pretty sure is correct. Basically his play is unexploitable and he should be allowed to win a pot uncontested here and there. It will be rare but it should happen sometimes, even with best play by you.

[Ditch Digger]

[ QUOTE ]
checking preflop should be best with the idea of folding whenever you don't have enough equity against a random hand on the flop. Of course this isn't easy to calculate in the heat of the moment but should almost certainly be the best play.

The correct play here is to fold because you are clearly -EV against a random hand. By checking preflop you gave yourself an extra option to avoid a -EV spot, that you wouldn't have if you simply pushed. In return you gave up absolutely nothing.

So for all those who say "just push preflop" I believe that in the strictly theoretical sense, and based on the fact that bigjoe is pushing pretty much every flop, they are just wrong. However pushing preflop is probably better from a practical standpoint.

This concept works better with really weak hands like 83o and puts both players in a situation where they can make mutually beneficial plays. You are happy that he doesn't push and lets you see a flop, he is very happy when you fold, even if your equity against his range is negative, because his survival is more important than the few extra chips he gains.

Forgive me I don't know precise prize structure, so if there is some extra benefit that goes to you for knocking him out, then the above may be a bit faulty. But the concept I'm pretty sure is correct. Basically his play is unexploitable and he should be allowed to win a pot uncontested here and there. It will be rare but it should happen sometimes, even with best play by you.

[/ QUOTE ]

We don't have enough equity vs a random hand but does bigjoe play every hand like this? I don't know how he plays top hands but I doubt he's stopping and going with them.

[curtains]

I dunno but he might. Because for all but the very best hands you want your opponent to fold instead of to race. Those hands won't make that big a dent in this spot, the equity still won't be there I think.

[Gramps]

In the moment it may throw you off esp. if you're not playing many SNGs, but against a good player who knows you're a good player, not shoving PF with J9 and then folding to a push is terrible. Even on that bad board (and I say "bad" b/c of the 3 and 4 as much as the hearts) my guess is you have plenty of equity to call getting close to 3:1. I'd be surprised if he had a card higher than a ten, though it makes sense to do it with some stronger hands for the heck of it since a good player is probably going to call your complete-push too...

...unless you have like 62o or something, if you were going to call a push, it's fine to just shove PF. A good player is folding (pre-flop or postflop) after completing here about 0% of the time, why encourage them (and others watching) to make future foolio plays against you?

[Gramps]

[ QUOTE ]
checking preflop should be best with the idea of folding whenever you don't have enough equity against a random hand on the flop. Of course this isn't easy to calculate in the heat of the moment but should almost certainly be the best play.

The correct play here is to fold because you are clearly -EV against a random hand. By checking preflop you gave yourself an extra option to avoid a -EV spot, that you wouldn't have if you simply pushed. In return you gave up absolutely nothing.

So for all those who say "just push preflop" I believe that in the strictly theoretical sense, and based on the fact that bigjoe is pushing pretty much every flop, they are just wrong. However pushing preflop is probably better from a practical standpoint.

This concept works better with really weak hands like 83o and puts both players in a situation where they can make mutually beneficial plays. You are happy that he doesn't push and lets you see a flop, he is very happy when you fold, even if your equity against his range is negative, because his survival is more important than the few extra chips he gains.

Forgive me I don't know precise prize structure, so if there is some extra benefit that goes to you for knocking him out, then the above may be a bit faulty. But the concept I'm pretty sure is correct. Basically his play is unexploitable and he should be allowed to win a pot uncontested here and there. It will be rare but it should happen sometimes, even with best play by you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Curtains, with all due respect, tell Gigabet to get off your account. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[darinvg]

I can't image folding here. It's just a stop n go.

[fluorescenthippo]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't image folding here. It's just a stop n go.

[/ QUOTE ]

yea but with most stop n gos you have pot odds on the flop. here you might not.

[Slim Pickens]

$EV_win = $399.6
$EV_lose = $261.9
$EV_fold = $298.1

So you need at least 26.3% pot equity, which you've got against a random hand.

[TruFloridaGator]

Sexy hand.

Horrible board, but at least the 2 lower cards are 4 & a 3, so our equity should be(and is) enough vs a lot of hands.

[DDBeast]

I think he's limping with trash here, I think he pushes stronger hands. That said, I definitely push pf because I don't want 95o making me fold on a flop like this.