preflop with kk -- nlcash

[cwar]

What in particular do you disagree with?

[jsnipes28]

[ QUOTE ]
if he 5-bets your 4-bet he probably does have AA

[/ QUOTE ]
^

[cwar]

You dont think him having AA is probable after a 5bet?

[jsnipes28]

[ QUOTE ]
You dont think him having AA is probable after a 5bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I could show you plenty of HHs from seemingly reasonable/tight/non-spewtards that shove a TON of stuff to a small 4bets.

My point is that villain is likely viewed as being "aggressive" or even "over-aggressive" and that when a tight player 3bets (infrequently) he plans on felting whatever decent hand he has. And I think it is easiest and best to maximize that edge by getting the money in now.

How do you think he proceeds w/ JJ or QQ? AK? Folds? Unlikely

[jsnipes28]

It's not that I dislike a call either, because I think it's fine to call. I just don't like it being presented as THE only right play.

You are basically arguing that he is 3b a tight range (that is still wider than AA) but that when he shoves it is going to make his range like 90% AA and that's just not the case. We both agree that his 3b range is very small and I am saying that we should get the money in now because we can be confident that he has a hand worth felting and we don't want the flop to kill our hand/kill our action.

[cwar]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not that I dislike a call either, because I think it's fine to call. I just don't like it being presented as THE only right play.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is fair but I do disagree that 4bettting small will maximize value against someone like this if he is FOS calling and snapping off his cbet in my mind has much more value than him randomly going nutty and pushing over your 4bet. Furthermore this is exactly the kind of villain that I think is capable of folding JJ and possibly QQ in this spot. He also rarely has AK in this spot IMO. If we had AA I would agree with you.

[daveT]

What if you do call and he has AA? After the flop comes down all rags, you are still losing a ton of money. I guess a trap on the flop is fine here if you are sure that he will fold large pockets pre-flop.

[olof86]

call > 4bet with that history, just call his cbbet on most of the flops