bottom two -- nl cash

[MasterLJ]

If that's the case, when do you c-bet, if ever? If your requisites for c-betting after a PF raise were that you needed a hand that you can hold to a raise from a worse hand, you would almost never cbet.

I stated it slightly incorrectly above, but the turn is going to bring 40 out of 47 cards (forgot non-club 2's originally) that can potentially help villain.

Checking this flop means you are giving up on the hand a huge majority of the time, which is missing value and terribly exploitable.

[RicherThanRichie]

adding to the flop play discusion whats our plan if
we c-bet flop and he calls and checks turn to us
the turn is a red 7?
the turn is a 7 of clubs?
the turn is Queen of clubs?
the turn is a red Queen?

If we check thru are we ever calling any river bets?


If we check flop and get led into on turn for 24$ whats out line with:
the turn is a red 7?
the turn is a 7 of clubs?
the turn is Queen of clubs?
the turn is a red Queen?

[cwar]

[ QUOTE ]
If that's the case, when do you c-bet, if ever? If your requisites for c-betting after a PF raise were that you needed a hand that you can hold to a raise from a worse hand, you would almost never cbet.

I stated it slightly incorrectly above, but the turn is going to bring 40 out of 47 cards (forgot non-club 2's originally) that can potentially help villain.

Checking this flop means you are giving up on the hand a huge majority of the time, which is missing value and terribly exploitable.

[/ QUOTE ]
I cbet for tons of reasons usually some combination of these:
-To fold out better hands (very rarely accomplished here)
-For value (not accomplished here)
-For free cards
-For pressure (lots of a nice cards that are good double and triple barrels)
-As a semi-bluff
-Sometimes for metagame
-Sometimes to protect myself from a very easy bluff from villain (not very easy for him to turn ATC into a bluff on this board especially given the read)

Besides when we check we are not giving up we have a lot of showdown value that we lose if we bet.

[MasterLJ]

Well, we can stop the debate because we disagree fundamentally:

[ QUOTE ]
I cbet for tons of reasons usually some combination of these:

[/ QUOTE ]
-To fold out better hands (very rarely accomplished here)Agreed
-For value (not accomplished here)Disagree... there is tons of value here since you are ahead here way more than half the time, and given the size of the c-bet, you only have to be ahead ~40% for this to be profitable. Obviously it's always profitable when villain folds
-For free cardsWe can do this here, although I wouldn't recommend it. I'd fire again on a lot of turns
-For pressure (double and triple barrels)Agreed, you can easily turn your hand into a bluff and maintain consistency in your line. You can fold a lot of mid-pairs and weaker jacks with a bet on the turn
-As a semi-bluff (very similar to free cards)We have that here in some capacity, although I still call it a v-bet
-Sometimes for metagameI can't comment here without playing in this match personally
-Sometimes to protect myself from a very easy bluff from villain (not very easy for him to turn ATC into a bluff on this board especially given the read)You also have the same luxury, but you have position.

[ivvaen]

I would cbet the flop here for the reasons stated by MasterLJ. Your line is way weird when the hand gets to the river, but I would value bet anywhere between 70-100, and fold to a push.

[cwar]

Its not for value because we dont get called by worse hands. Draws are basically better hands in this spot unless they c/c c/c chk because most of the time they should push us off our hand at some point in the hand. I also dont think its a good texture flop to double barrel a lot. Furthermore just because a cbet works 40% here doesnt make it the best option. Clearly I play a very different style from you MLJ so I think we can both be partially correct in this spot but to say not c-betting here 100% is a leak is just wrong IMO.

[ivvaen]

cwar: I will cbet this flop very often, but check behind sometimes. I don't think it's a leak to not cbet it every time, but it should definetely be cbetted more than 50% of the times.

Also: Hero's turn reraise looks a lot like an A of clubs looking for a fold, so you should not at all be surprised to get a call from a naked K or even a J here (even though that's stretching it).

[whaahhahahah]

"You absolutely have something to protect here, you have a pair HU."

"Checking this flop means you are giving up on the hand a huge majority of the time"

i wonder if these two statements are related

[cwar]

[ QUOTE ]
"You absolutely have something to protect here, you have a pair HU."

"Checking this flop means you are giving up on the hand a huge majority of the time"

i wonder if these two statements are related

[/ QUOTE ]
Im not really sure I get what you are trying to say... What are your thoughts on the hand?

[whaahhahahah]

if you protect every hand, a flop check is giving away a ton of info.

as for the hand in general, i was trying to think of a good bet size for the river.

i think i'm getting looked up by a single king most of the time, i just wasn't sure whether to bet 100, 130-150, or push for 350.

do people think a turn raise and then a push looks like a bluff (maybe A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]x with x not being a club)?