Bulking: Clean Diet?

[guids]

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I don't see how a referenced wiki link is any less reputable than the things you posted. In fact I'd say its far more reliable. I saw that chart you posted earlier to make sure I was correct. In fact if you actually read the references you'd see that it is referencing the exact chart you posted. I typically expect a higher grade argument out of you. This is somewhat pathetic. I don't want to hear random ad hominem attacks when you just want to insist you are correct.

5% isn't a hard rule of course. I'm sure there are a few people that can walk around at that without ill effects. But they are very far and few between. To suggest that everyone needs to be between 5-7% when starting a bulk is asinine and just misinformation.

Should I amend my previous statement to say walking around at 5% could be unhealthy for 99% of people?

Also, water measurements are much much more accurate than other methods such as calipers which ignore visceral fat as I explained earlier. It is a much higher grade test than caliper or measuring body parts and using formulas etc. I don't see why you are even arguing this. This is pretty much exact fact.

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so if it is referencing it how is it reliable than? because obv the charts are different? Uhh.....I never said that water wasnt waay more reliable, its just not 100% exact, so pinning these hard lines down is tough to impossible. search any bodybuilding site for "ideal bf% to start a bulk", youd be hard pressed to find anyone that will advocate starting a bulk at more than 11% or so. stick between 5% and 10% is basically my whole point, bcause the less fat you have to begin with, the less fat you will gain.

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this part isn't really true at all. im becoming somewhat active on bodybuilding.com. i posted a set of progress pics showing me at 5'11 185lbs and roughly 15%bf. the overwhelming response from people was telling me to bulk up as i have relatively little muscle (i did ignore the advice, and am shooting for 10-11% before i start bulking). if i wanted to get down to 5-7% i would probably have to drop down to around 165lbs and that is damn skinny.

i have seen countless other similar thread recommending others in the 12-16%bf range to bulk for a quite a while before they even think about cutting. from my understanding, you are a pretty experienced lifter though, and probably already have a decent muscle base to work from where 7% isn't going to make you a bone rack. i am generally reading the sections geared towards teens and novices. considering the physical state of the average 2p2er though, i think it is much more reasonable to be giving them novice advice that programs geared towards an experienced lifter.

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anyone advocating starting a bulk at 15% for an inexperienced or experienced lifter shouldnt be giving out advice. I was talking mainly the guys who actually write the articles than teh posters. My fault. I dont think you need to get straight down to 5 or 6%, but if you are at 15%, diet down to 8 or 9%, and start a SLOW bulk, until you reach 11%, then you can diet down to 7%, bulk until you hit 10, and so on, until you have enough muscle mass that you dont look sickly when you are at 6%. bulking at anything over than 11 or 12% is less than ideal.

[Scotty.]

OK, well here is a pic of me at 185 and ~15%. Out of curiousity, based on this pic, would you suggest adding some mass at this point, or cutting down another 12-15lbs?



Personally, I think dropping 15lbs would make me look way too skinny. I think I look tiny there as it is. FWIW, my decision was to shed another 8lbs or so, then bulk.

[Warder]

I think Thremp, for the most part, is on the money with all of his posts. He might have stepped out of line a few times, but he's giving sound advice if you read what he's saying...and I hope that I'm understanding him correctly myself.

For a hard gainer, caloric intake is more important than eating clean and probably much easier too. You don't have to get crazy about it, but eating some high calorie foods is fine as long as your taking in nutrients. While I myself wouldn't go as far to advise soda and fried foods, he's right in what he's saying. You MUST get calories and the truth is that most clean foods just don't have enough and for most people it's not practical to prepare enough meals to take in a sufficient amount without devoting their lives to it.

Also, I believe he's right on the money as far as bodyfat %s go. I believe 6-10% bodyfat is ideal. I would say it's impossible/somewhat unhealthy for the majority of people to hold a year round bodyweight of 5%. I think 10% or a bit lower is a realistic goal that almost anybody could achieve with a very strict diet and fitness routine.

[guids]

Id lose abotu 12 more lbs, it will bring you down to a bodyweight of 173ish, and you will be sub 10% bodyfat-wise most likely, right about 8.5%ish I think. you might "feel" skinny for a bit, but its nothing excessive, and when you slowly trasition to bulk, you will see better gains.

[guids]

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I think Thremp, for the most part, is on the money with all of his posts. He might have stepped out of line a few times, but he's giving sound advice if you read what he's saying...and I hope that I'm understanding him correctly myself.

For a hard gainer, caloric intake is more important than eating clean and probably much easier too. You don't have to get crazy about it, but eating some high calorie foods is fine as long as your taking in nutrients. While I myself wouldn't go as far to advise soda and fried foods, he's right in what he's saying. You MUST get calories and the truth is that most clean foods just don't have enough and for most people it's not practical to prepare enough meals to take in a sufficient amount without devoting their lives to it.

Also, I believe he's right on the money as far as bodyfat %s go. I believe 6-10% bodyfat is ideal. I would say it's impossible/somewhat unhealthy for the majority of people to hold a year round bodyweight of 5%. I think 10% or a bit lower is a realistic goal that almost anybody could achieve with a very strict diet and fitness routine.

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Id agree with you that if you dont want to put in teh time and effort to be very strict with your diet and workouts, that yes, you will not ever achieve the goals I listed. You say that 6 to 10% is "more realistic" than 5%....do you realize how little of a difference we are talkign about? going from 5% to 6% is going to be like 1 or 2 lbs of fat, and hell, its pretty tough to zero in exactly to what your bf is, so at 8am you might be 5% and by noon th reading may read 7%. also, most clean foods just dont have enough cals? wtf? saying things are not practical is an excuse for being lazy. I honestly dont think thremp would agree with much of what you said. And Im pretty sure I never advocated having a year round bodyweight of 5%, i suggest keeping your bf between 5 and 10% year round.

[Warder]

Scotty,

You have a pretty solid base to add a significant amount of mass. You look like you gain weight easily, therefore you can't be as loose with your diet as a lot of people (I'm the same way). Focus on a lot of compound movements and not so much isolation stuff. Keep the weight heavy. You have a pretty wide midsection so when working abs I'd stay away from using any kind of weight and just do bodyweight exercises.

The significant weaknesses I see are in your chest and arms and also shoulders, but your chest stand out more than the others. If you put in the effort you should have no problem gaining muscle in those areas.

You definitely don't need to be losing more weight before bulking.

[Warder]

I don't think you have to be extremely strict to reach those goals with a very skinny body type. These people are having trouble putting on weight no matter what they eat. The goal isn't to look a bit more muscular. We're trying to add a significant amount of mass to people who just aren't growing. We want to create a state in which is ideal for our body to add overall mass. Again, this isn't for people who don't have trouble putting on weight. As far as 5% and 6% go, I agree with you that there is little difference. But I think a line has to be drawn somewhere. Or else what's the difference between 6% and 7% or 7% and 8% for that matter. I chose 6% because it's close to what is achievable by most people. When we're talking about the low end of what is ideal, it all comes down to genetics on what you can maintain and still be healthy. Yes, most clean foods (talking mostly about clean carbs here such as any green vegetable) do not pack a significant amount of calories for what these people need unless they plan to have a ton of servings. You can definitely do it, but it's just not practical. And remember, these people are having trouble putting on weight anyway, so by not eating as clean as your or I, they are not making a very big mistake.

[thirddan]

hey scotty,

this isn't true for all people, but some will actually look bigger when they lose some body fat since the muscles are seen better, its just a visual thing, but thats what a lot of us do this for...

[guids]

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I don't think you have to be extremely strict to reach those goals with a very skinny body type. These people are having trouble putting on weight no matter what they eat. The goal isn't to look a bit more muscular. We're trying to add a significant amount of mass to people who just aren't growing. We want to create a state in which is ideal for our body to add overall mass. Again, this isn't for people who don't have trouble putting on weight. As far as 5% and 6% go, I agree with you that there is little difference. But I think a line has to be drawn somewhere. Or else what's the difference between 6% and 7% or 7% and 8% for that matter. I chose 6% because it's close to what is achievable by most people. When we're talking about the low end of what is ideal, it all comes down to genetics on what you can maintain and still be healthy. Yes, most clean foods (talking mostly about clean carbs here such as any green vegetable) do not pack a significant amount of calories for what these people need unless they plan to have a ton of servings. You can definitely do it, but it's just not practical. And remember, these people are having trouble putting on weight anyway, so by not eating as clean as your or I, they are not making a very big mistake.

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It seems you are equating very skinny body types with being lean. this is not exactly true. If someone has a skinny body type, more often than not it is because they lack muscle not because they cant put on weight (skinny fat guys). If someone truly does have trouble putting on weight at all (which a lot of people do), than they arent going to be above 10% bf more often times than not, and can just basically heed my advice w/o doing much.




Scotty,

also, think of it this way, if you do a slow controlled cut, you wont lose too much muscle, if any, losing muscle really comes nto play when you are near the higher reccomended negative calorie balance (5 or 600 defecit a day), if you go lower, muscle loss isnt really much for a factor (basically none for a newb). so you only need to lose about 12lbs which is nothing (it may be psychologically, but most random people will never notice if you lose 10 lbs)

[Scotty.]

Yea, I'm not too worried about the difficulty of losing weight, and I know how to do it properly (already down ~30lbs in just over 4 months). I was just using myself as an example that you probably don't NEED to cut to well below 10% before bulking. That pic is actually over a month old, and I'm around 177-178 now. Unfortunately I've been a little lazy with the cut lately (too much booze, not eating properly, or lifting enough) so I have probably had some muscle loss. My digital calipers are reading around 12-13% usually, but my measuring skills are far from perfect.

I will probably start bulking very soon. My stated goal was 175 and 10% but I don't think I can quite do that anymore. I am doing this mostly for the visual aspect as well (though the strength is nice, I don't really need it for sports or anything). I really don't want to go much lighter than this though, for psychological reasons. I have not been this small in about 4 years, and bulking is going to take a long time as I plan on doing it very clean.