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#1
10-10-2007, 01:43 AM
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Checking behind flops HU
I was watching one old NL $100 stoxtrader video when the following situation occurred. UTG minraised and Hero (stox) reraised to 6$ w/ A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] from the HJ. Both full stacks. Everyone else folds.
Flop comes 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] UTG checks and Hero checks behind. Is this a very standard play in NL? I'm having problems to understand it because in limit I'm just used to always auto bet the flop and probably also turn. In the video he motivates his flop check by the fact that he will induce bluffs on the turn by checking and also draw cheaply himself. Also he say he will not fold out a better hand and not get any worse hands to call. This looks weird to me. What’s the point with inducing bluffs in this hand. I assume sometimes villain will lead strongly on the turn and force us to fold the best hand with a semibluff? Also I can see villain folds some better hands to the flopbet, like PP:s from 22-55 . Or is it to weak to fold those hands? Finally the thing with not getting worse hands to call. Isn’t it a good thing to bet and fold out hands like AJ, AT. I’m new to NL so I'm not criticizing his play.. Just want to know why and the theory behind it. Also by understanding this might get me to understand why it’s often better to bet into the pf raiser in NL rather than C/R as you do in limit HU 
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#2
10-10-2007, 02:01 AM
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Re: Checking behind flops HU
[ QUOTE ]
Also by understanding this might get me to understand why it’s often better to bet into the pf raiser in NL rather than C/R as you do in limit HU [/ QUOTE ] Where did you get that from? If a guy is going to c-bet most flops, then C/Ring him is absolutely right when you hit a flop hard. If I had to guess, checking the flop here probably has to do with the fact that there's a lot of good turn cards for the hand. Any diamond gives a flush draw, J or T gives a gutshot, and A or K gives TPTK.
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#3
10-10-2007, 04:17 AM
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Re: Checking behind flops HU
[ QUOTE ]
If I had to guess, checking the flop here probably has to do with the fact that there's a lot of good turn cards for the hand. Any diamond gives a flush draw, J or T gives a gutshot, and A or K gives TPTK. [/ QUOTE ] I think it has more to do with the board being a very good one for an opponent to check-raise with a wide variety of hands when your hand has some value, as you note. It's also a good candidate for hands you should check the flop with some of the time when you miss in order to set up your slowplays and induce people to bet the turn if you check a similar flop with TPTK next time. Did stox say he was inducing bluffs on specifically this hand or on future hands, or did he not differentiate between the two?
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#4
10-10-2007, 09:10 PM
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Re: Checking behind flops HU
I like this check behind because hero's hand has some value against villain (in a small pot) but cannot withstand a checkraise (does not want to play a big pot at this point). Having A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] you want to see the turn and see if the hand develops into a big one.
Folding AJ and AT is not critical because they only have 3 outs really, and we will make some bets if an Ace drops. You will notice that unlike in limit, the marginal value bet and the practice of protecting one's hand, although not trivial, often are outweighed by other concerns.
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#5
10-10-2007, 11:26 PM
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Re: Checking behind flops HU
[ QUOTE ]
Did stox say he was inducing bluffs on specifically this hand or on future hands, or did he not differentiate between the two? [/ QUOTE ] It think he was meaing this particular hand when he said it
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#6
10-10-2007, 11:30 PM
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Re: Checking behind flops HU
I have been thinking some more about this hand. Against an UTG opening range our hand isn't in that good shape on that board. That combined with the fact that he often drawing to 3 outs when behind might justify the check behind?
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#7
10-11-2007, 02:28 PM
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Re: Checking behind flops HU
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Also by understanding this might get me to understand why it’s often better to bet into the pf raiser in NL rather than C/R as you do in limit HU [/ QUOTE ] Where did you get that from? If a guy is going to c-bet most flops, then C/Ring him is absolutely right when you hit a flop hard. [/ QUOTE ] Check raising when the flop hits you hard does not produce big pots, i.e. make money. By check raising the preflop raiser you just told him that you have a hand and now he has position on you to where he can just fold, thus losing money and only gaining the money from his bet. Betting into the preflop raiser will cause the pot to become bloated, especially when the preflop raiser raises your bet. Then you end up 3-betting. For instance the pot preflop is $100. You check, he bets $50. You check raise to $150, and now he folds. Thus gaining $50. OR - preflop pot is $100, you bet $50 or even $75 and now he raises to say $150 or $200. Which do you think makes more money? If the flop hits you hard, build the pot and stay away from check raising. I think Stox check behind on this flop is because he doesnt have a hand. By checking behind it keeps the pot smaller, plus he gets a free card and can use his position on the turn or river to decide whether or not to call. In addition he might hit a card that helps him or induce bluff with your position. Stox does not need to bet on this flop since the pot is probably relatively small compared to the stack sizes.
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#8
10-11-2007, 02:57 PM
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Re: Checking behind flops HU
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Also by understanding this might get me to understand why it’s often better to bet into the pf raiser in NL rather than C/R as you do in limit HU [/ QUOTE ] Where did you get that from? If a guy is going to c-bet most flops, then C/Ring him is absolutely right when you hit a flop hard. [/ QUOTE ] Check raising when the flop hits you hard does not produce big pots, i.e. make money. By check raising the preflop raiser you just told him that you have a hand and now he has position on you to where he can just fold, thus losing money and only gaining the money from his bet. Betting into the preflop raiser will cause the pot to become bloated, especially when the preflop raiser raises your bet. Then you end up 3-betting. For instance the pot preflop is $100. You check, he bets $50. You check raise to $150, and now he folds. Thus gaining $50. OR - preflop pot is $100, you bet $50 or even $75 and now he raises to say $150 or $200. Which do you think makes more money? If the flop hits you hard, build the pot and stay away from check raising. I think Stox check behind on this flop is because he doesnt have a hand. By checking behind it keeps the pot smaller, plus he gets a free card and can use his position on the turn or river to decide whether or not to call. In addition he might hit a card that helps him or induce bluff with your position. Stox does not need to bet on this flop since the pot is probably relatively small compared to the stack sizes. [/ QUOTE ] i wish it were this easy. What about the times you lead with a monster and he folds outright?
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#9
10-11-2007, 08:24 PM
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Re: Checking behind flops HU
More than likely player dependant. I wish it were that easy too. So you recommend check raising more then just betting out right? Check call? You tell me - your the pro [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
It would seem the more times you lead out and he folds is still more EV than the times you check raise and he folds. Yes - no?
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#10
10-11-2007, 10:34 PM
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Re: Checking behind flops HU
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Also by understanding this might get me to understand why it’s often better to bet into the pf raiser in NL rather than C/R as you do in limit HU [/ QUOTE ] Where did you get that from? If a guy is going to c-bet most flops, then C/Ring him is absolutely right when you hit a flop hard. [/ QUOTE ] Check raising when the flop hits you hard does not produce big pots, i.e. make money. By check raising the preflop raiser you just told him that you have a hand and now he has position on you to where he can just fold, thus losing money and only gaining the money from his bet. Betting into the preflop raiser will cause the pot to become bloated, especially when the preflop raiser raises your bet. Then you end up 3-betting. For instance the pot preflop is $100. You check, he bets $50. You check raise to $150, and now he folds. Thus gaining $50. OR - preflop pot is $100, you bet $50 or even $75 and now he raises to say $150 or $200. Which do you think makes more money? If the flop hits you hard, build the pot and stay away from check raising. I think Stox check behind on this flop is because he doesnt have a hand. By checking behind it keeps the pot smaller, plus he gets a free card and can use his position on the turn or river to decide whether or not to call. In addition he might hit a card that helps him or induce bluff with your position. Stox does not need to bet on this flop since the pot is probably relatively small compared to the stack sizes. [/ QUOTE ] What you said is true if people always folded to, and never raised, check-raises and people never folded to donk-bets.
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