97 in the sb

[surfdoc]

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joetall,

preflop obv. I think it's a fold. We're OOP with dubious equity.

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equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 44.511% { 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+ }
Hand 1: 28.365% { 97s }
Hand 2: 27.125% { random }

But I guess we should consider the BB folding some hands:


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.729% { 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+ }
Hand 1: 26.626% { 97s }
Hand 2: 33.645% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q3s+, J6s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, A2o+, K6o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }


So, I was a little light on the Defend/raise side, but this is NoCal poker which is Asian poker, so, maybe not!

It's real close, FWIW I call with 98s here for sure:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.382% { 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+ }
Hand 1: 27.356% { 98s }
Hand 2: 33.262% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q3s+, J6s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, A2o+, K6o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }

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Joe who is very Tall,

I think your ranges are too wide bordering on waaay to wide. The raise was MP in a full ring and we are not told the villian was a lagtard. Only you will be jacking up T8s and K6s and A7o. Redo your homework and come back to class prepared, kthx.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

wow completely forgot about this thread, but i remember this hand.

i call the river. bb overcalls as well. bb has KK, mp had 44 for quads.

[Joe Tall]

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Joe who is very Tall,

I think your ranges are too wide bordering on waaay to wide. The raise was MP in a full ring and we are not told the villian was a lagtard. Only you will be jacking up T8s and K6s and A7o. Redo your homework and come back to class prepared, kthx.

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Doc who surfs,

As you see from the results, MP had 44, and I left 44 OUT of my range.

Come back to my school anytime,
Joe who is Tall

For the record I was lazy and used the PStove slider, so there may be a few on there that MP doesnt raise but I'm sure I can replace those hands with ones he likely does, enough to make the equity ranges near the same.

[Jim Morgan]

I don't see how getting a tiny showdown edge by calling with 9s7s can be correct, unless of course, we are actually going all in!

We are OOP!

We cannot expect to play perfectly or even close When the flop comes J95 rainbow, will we really know what to do after a c-bet. These simulations don't measure the cost of being OOP.

Fold this crappy hand unless raiser is quite nearly raising on any 2 cards

I'm not so sure 98s is playable in this spot either. Calling 4 chips OOP is about like calling 6 chips in good position. I tend to call raises in the 2 chip small blind as if I were making a decision to call a non-raised pot from the button.

The BB is another matter. Calling half a bet instead of two-thirds of a bet is a big difference. You also know what the SB did. In the SB you might get re-raised by the BB. I still won't play trashy stuff like 97off or Q7s for 3-way action, but 97s is easily good enough for me.


Jim

[surfdoc]

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Joe who is very Tall,

I think your ranges are too wide bordering on waaay to wide. The raise was MP in a full ring and we are not told the villian was a lagtard. Only you will be jacking up T8s and K6s and A7o. Redo your homework and come back to class prepared, kthx.

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Doc who surfs,

As you see from the results, MP had 44, and I left 44 OUT of my range.

Come back to my school anytime,
Joe who is Tall

For the record I was lazy and used the PStove slider, so there may be a few on there that MP doesnt raise but I'm sure I can replace those hands with ones he likely does, enough to make the equity ranges near the same.

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Joe who is very Tall AND very results oriented,

I don't think post hoc analysis of what he had is a reasonable argument to justify what the predicted range of an unknown player is. Many players overvalue small pairs yet don't play as many hands as listed in your stove.

As far as this being a clear call I really don't agree but I am intrigued by trending 2p2 line of thinking that all we need to do is have reasonable stove equity and we get to play. The implication is that we can ignore position and use our superior postflop skill to get involved. I think Jim Morgan does a pretty good job detailing how we won't get to realize out stove equity.

I may some visit your school but can't stay long since there aren't any waves. That, and the fact that I pretty much maxed out on how much school one person is allowed to attend.

[cowboy billy]

I agree with jim and surf about the pre flop decision and would fold 97s from the sb against an MP raiser

I would consider playing 98s, but only with a read on BB and MP

post flop is wp

[Vehn]

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I didn't read this thread the first time, but why does everyone love this hand so much? Preflop is a fold, flop lead is fine, but just about any line is fine with this hand on the flop.

On both turn and river, I don't feel we have a good enough read to not 3-bet.

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pf easy fold, ugh. Flop lead is super donkey IMO, I hate it.

[cowboy billy]

flop lead is not donkish at all, we want to give BB the opportunity to knock out MP, we gain more info by betting than by checking and we also don't run the risk to see the action get back to us for 2 cold when we could have the best hand

[Vehn]

I would argue that the flop donk here will give you way, way less info than a simple c/r or even c/c would. Lots of people hate these types of donks and will raise and keep firing with simple overcards because they hate to give up their lead while in position and hate to be bluffed and simply hate people who don't "respect" their PF action. Or maybe its just me.

[cowboy billy]

I would agree with you if it were a HU pot or if BB had merely called pre flop instead of 3-bet

but with this pre flop action I like a flop lead much better than a check