200NL live 1/2 -- AK overcards + gutshot on flop, help beginner

[Wht]

Hey Gurus,

First post here. I am a true beginner -- I had only played 7 hours total live 1/2NL before I sat down at the table described below, where I stayed for 2 hours at the Borgata on Sunday early evening. I've won some money (about $30/hour so far with my admittedly *very* small sample of hands), playing tight and betting out when I'm obviously ahead. Still, I'm often confused about where I am on the turn and river when the board starts to straighten, it pairs, starts to work toward a flush, etc..

Most of my hands are pretty straightforward, but I thought I'd post a in hand which I feel I played very poorly, and get some help!

Playing for an hour and 15mins or so. I've been very tight pre-flop. Won a couple of pots with a simple pre-flop raise, some on the flop or turn with pot-sized (flop) and 2/3-1/2 sized (turn) bets respectively, and lost a few where I missed the flop and gave up.
Table has several observant players, 2 with $700+ on table (at least I thought they were -- though people insist these players don't exist at Borgata on the weekends, much less holiday weekends!) A few very loose-passive or maniac-type players have come and gone -- I never got anything to use to tangle with them. Rest are limping a lot and slowly losing chips back and forth to one another.

1/2NL, $300 max buy in, 9 players

dealt:
AKo

I'm at the CO.
There are 3 limpers, button & blinds to go.
My stack: $220 (bought in for $200)


I raise pre-flop bet to 7.5BB
- trying to isolate, my standard 5bb only sometimes worked to do this, and I'm adjusting for the limpers

2 callers, I'm in position:
1) deep stack woman. Here when I sat down. $700 in front of her (max buy in is $300), pretty tight (but less than I am). Seen her bet out pot-sized amounts on flop, aware of pot size, position, other players. Willing to fold. It doesn't appear that she got her chips by recklessly throwing them around.

2) mystery guy, $170?, limps in some, has mostly given up on flop or turn IIRC. Haven't seen enough from him to know what this kind of call means about his hand range. Could be 68o for all I know.

I'm guessing at this point b/c my hand reading isn't very good, but I put her on pocket pair, AK, AQ, AJ-A10s, (doubting any two suited face card, but maybe)
doubtful AA -- would have re-raised. Probably would have with KK as well?


Flop:
4 T Q rainbow

She bets 3/4 pot. Mystery guy folds. I call.

Perhaps optimistic here, but my thinking goes: 10 outs, 4 of which give me nut straight. 6 others (A/K) beat her if she has a pocket pair which didn't hit, and some will give me TPTK if she missed a straight draw like mine, or has something like K10s or A10 etc., etc.).
I'm worried she has QQ, TT, but think it could be something like AQ.
However, if she *does* has a set and I get the J for the straight, I'm sure she's going to double me up.

Turn:
A

Great, right? I hit one of the cards I was hoping for.
She checks.
Now I need to figure out what to bet. But now I begin to have what I can only describe as an out of body experience. I am mentally calculating what to bet to see where I am at in this hand. And I realize that in the real world I am checking the turn. No, I'm not thinking that I want to 'slow play' TPTK -- one half of my brain wants to bet and the reptilian part of my brain is screaming -- she has AQ or QQ and she is trapping you.

River:
3
Any possibility of a flush is gone, only straight would be if she had JK. She checked the turn. Good chance have her beat, but let's see what she does here. It probably looks at this point like I'm analyzing her action, but in reality I'm lost in an internal dialog trying to figure out what the hell *I* am doing here, and why. I snap out of it and realize that I am so disconcerted about the turn that I am already pulling chips out of my stack (unusual for me -- I almost always wait for my turn to start whatever action I'm going to take.)
I look up and see her looking at me starting to count chips. She looks down, pauses for a second and checks.

Good deal, now I bet out right?
Instead, the voice is back saying 'No, she didn't check b/c she saw you were ready to bet and she knows you have the Ace, but rather she checked b/c she knows you're going to bet and she wants to check-raise you.' I'm debating this for a few seconds, and I begin to feel that I seem so indecisive on a blank river that a bet must seem like a bluff, and if I do bet, she may come over me not only with the hands that have me beat (AQ, AT or the less likely sets or straights at this point (QQ, TT or JK)), but also with the other pocket pairs, or the Q-pair w/ unknown kickers that *I* beat, not to mention a stone-cold bluff. If she does come over all-in, I know I'm wanting to fold (not saying if this is right or wrong, just that I will want to).
I check it.



I'm looking for opinions here -- should I have given up on the flop?
Assuming I called the flop bet, am I right I should have bet the turn? (If she calls the turn, call her bet on the river? Bet river if she checks?)

Would be most helpful if you could explain why, also.


Will share actual results after a bit of feedback.

[ijustliketoplay]

pre flop fine but fold that flop. she bet 3/4 pot and is not pricing in because you only have 4 clean outs. the other 6 are very dirty because of reverse implied odds i.e they could make her two pairs, straights and sets which means you end up paying her off even more. and even if they dont they leave u very uncertain where u are so u dont get the value u need to make the call worthwhile

as you played it i think u would normally value bet the river after two checks but given u think she spotted u about to bet, checking is fine

[AlcateL]

[ QUOTE ]
pre flop fine but fold that flop. she bet 3/4 pot and is not pricing in because you only have 4 clean outs. the other 6 are very dirty because of reverse implied odds i.e they could make her two pairs, straights and sets which means you end up paying her off even more. and even if they dont they leave u very uncertain where u are so u dont get the value u need to make the call worthwhile

as you played it i think u would normally value bet the river after two checks but given u think she spotted u about to bet, checking is fine

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree - if its clear you have the ace she might check to you twice as in these live games people like to get value if they think they're "clearly" ahead but its not clear at all that you're ahead here. That being said I might have bet the turn and then ofc passed if raised. that way you get rid of weaker hands, if a blank hits the river afterwards depending on your read check/bet.

Given the way this hand played out I'd really have to decide what i think my opponent has. However i would not call a check/reraise on this river (def not in a live game)

[Javanewt]

I would have folded the flop. However, as played, I would have bet the turn and folded to a re-raise. I haven't seen too many players check raise in live 1/2, and her check seems more like weakness to me than a trap. But you were there and you are the one who has the "gut" feeling.

I definitely can't imagine her checking the river with a made hand, unless she's extremely tricky or extremely bad. She needs to get money in somewhere if she wants to make money. If she really thought you were going to bet and she had a made hand, she should have put a little in the pot hoping you'd raise her or at least call. Why give you the opportunity to check behind her set or two pair (although I hate two pair)?

Also, when people do what you did (acting as if they are going to bet), it's often a bluff.

As played, I probably would have bet river, too, and folded to a re-raise. Again, you were there....

You did get away cheap, though, and you might be ahead.

[Raised2Win]

fold the flop if u aren't going to raise it.

bet the turn or the river.

[Wht]

Thanks guys,

This confirms my experience, I guess, during the hand.

I think I've learned not to consider cards as outs if they are going to put my in a tricky place when they actually hit, or if I'm not sure how I'm going to play them. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I also found that my 'gut' feeling about what she had and what she was trying to do was, as some of you suspected, wrong. She was tending toward better the river, but not because she had a great hand, but rather because she thought I seemed unsure of where I was and she thought she might get me out of the hand with the right raise. Fair enough. (I have very good hearing, and even though she was across the table I heard her say something to this effect that she should have tried to push me off.)

I checked, she showed QK (both black, I think both clubs, but they were too far away for me to see), for a pair of queens.

I showed my AK first, and she was nice enough to turn up her hand as well, rather than just mucking it. So I picked up an OK pot despite myself.

I think I have a tendency to assume people have the nuts, or very strong hands, when they may not. I'm trying to figure out a better balance of caution/risk.

This hand earned me a bemused snort from the guy to my right, which was OK, because he was a nice guy, and I was frankly a bit confused by my own play here.

Thanks again for the comments.