Hard to quantify sports question

[vhawk01]

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Even the most marginal NBA player is an absurdly better athlete than an ordinary person. When basketball people say that Grant Long can't shoot, can't pass, can't dribble, what they mean is: He can shoot, pass and dribble better than you, better than anybody you know, better than all but a few hundred people in the world. Long's jump shot is so bad, by NBA standards, that his team never runs a play designed to set him up for it; but you could practice your jump shot every day forever and still never beat him in a game of Horse. '

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I don't know anything about Grant Long, but it doesn't seem to me that every NBA player is better than an average person at every basketball skill. I have basically no basketball skills whatsoever, but I think think I could shoot free throws better than Ben Wallace with a little practice.

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That's probably true for FTs but nothing else. And it is true about the overall level of talent in the NBA being just absurd.

I remember back in the 80s, the Rockets had this scrub 12th man forward named Dave Feitl, a big goofy white guy who never ever played. I once went down to Fonde Recreation Center (legendary pickup spot, lots of great players there), and Feitl was running with 9 guys who were all 6'7" or taller and all looked chiseled out of granite. Feitl completely dominated the game, scored at will, grabbed every rebound, nailed 3s, etc. And this guy was one of the worst players in the NBA, yet he was without question the best player in a very high level pick up game. It's just a whole different level.

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Yeah, you just have to go to the cage on W 4th St or Rucker to see the 2nd-tier college stars and NBDL guys dominate the best pickup players in the City on a daily basis.

I remember Kenny Smith came to one game and some playground "legend" scored like 20 or 25 in the first half on Kenny and was taunting him at the half.

Kenny outscored him like 60-4 in the second half. I think he had more than 60 actually.

NBA shooting guards regularly hit 70% or more of their 3s in practice, unguarded. Not one person at 2p2 can do that on a daily basis from NBA range. Not even close - I'm talking over 100 shots, not 10, even I can get hot and make 7 of 10 from straight away.

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You don't think there is a single 2p2 poster who could make 70/100 3s? I bet if you got the money big enough you'd find out differently, 2p2 is a big place.

[gusmahler]

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given how much nepotism seems to rule in NASCAR

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unless you're talking about the actual ownership of the company, what are you referring to?

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Dale Jr, Tony Jr. Bush brothers, Petty kids, Andretti kids (ok not nascar but still). Seems like being in the family is a pretty nice leg up into a ride.

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Did Richard Petty get his ride only because his father (Lee) was a famous racer? Possibly. But his 200 wins shows he probably deserved his ride. Dale Jr. isn't as successful as his father was, but 3rd in Nextel Cup standings shows he wasn't exactly unqualified either.

It's more like being born in a racing family gives one exposure to racing at a young age, thus making you a much better racer at age 20.

Marco Andretti (Mario's grandson, Michael's son) was a legitimately elite racer at the level just below Indy Racing. Did he have advantages? Of course. His family has money and could easily buy a ride. But probably the biggest advantage was that he was around cars and racing from the time he was born.

[vhawk01]

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C'mon Dids, in every sport being the son of a great player or even a bad one gives you a huge advantage in terms of development, actual talent, and opportunities. It's not like any of the ones you mentioned don't deserve to be there anyway.

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Yeah, but its a ridiculously high percentage in NASCAR, which is actually more support for the "training plus experience" side, rather than the innate talent side. Baseball is probably played closer to "limits of human ability" and with enough people getting all that training and experience can provide, innate talent has a much bigger impact. Thus, you don't see nearly as many 'legacies,' more than what chance would suggest (due to good genes) but less than in NASCAR.

[Thremp]

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C'mon Dids, in every sport being the son of a great player or even a bad one gives you a huge advantage in terms of development, actual talent, and opportunities. It's not like any of the ones you mentioned don't deserve to be there anyway.

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Yeah, but its a ridiculously high percentage in NASCAR, which is actually more support for the "training plus experience" side, rather than the innate talent side. Baseball is probably played closer to "limits of human ability" and with enough people getting all that training and experience can provide, innate talent has a much bigger impact. Thus, you don't see nearly as many 'legacies,' more than what chance would suggest (due to good genes) but less than in NASCAR.

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Racing is also something that is hard for everyone to break into. I'd probably liken it pulling from a pool the same size as polo maybe?

If you're 7 and tell your mom you wanna race cars... Who gets a chance?

[gusmahler]

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C'mon Dids, in every sport being the son of a great player or even a bad one gives you a huge advantage in terms of development, actual talent, and opportunities. It's not like any of the ones you mentioned don't deserve to be there anyway.

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Yeah, but its a ridiculously high percentage in NASCAR, which is actually more support for the "training plus experience" side, rather than the innate talent side. Baseball is probably played closer to "limits of human ability" and with enough people getting all that training and experience can provide, innate talent has a much bigger impact. Thus, you don't see nearly as many 'legacies,' more than what chance would suggest (due to good genes) but less than in NASCAR.

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But there are other factors in place. Racing is expensive and time consuming. If the parents aren't really into it, the kids won't be racing. Obviously the Andretti family, Petty family, etc. are really into racing and are willing to spend lots of money and lots of time on having their kids become racers.

But you have to start early. Which is why the average 20 year old has virtually no shot at becoming a NASCAR racer.

[JACK CUST]

Thremp- Whoever can afford a go-kart, basically.

Maybe I am naive, but I'm just not seeing this ridiculously high percentage of nepotism in NASCAR. I just went through this years point standings. In the top 30, the only ones that I could come up with were Earnhardt Jr. and Casey Mears who had famous fathers. I just skimmed it and might have missed someone though. There were 3-4 who have/had brothers that raced, but is that really nepotism when they were contemporaries of each other?

Also, maybe I need to get a dictionary, but I always thought that nepotism meant you also got your position without merit.

[Thremp]

Jack,

Not so much. More like a couple thousand dollar go kart. And despite living in the heart of racing territory. No one still races in their youth. And very very few race when they are teenagers. There is a lack of facilities, coupled with the high costs of entering the sport.

[gusmahler]

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Thremp- Whoever can afford a go-kart, basically.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, you can just buy a go-kart. But it's more than just that. Your 7 year old wants to race, so you get him a go kart. But you also have to take him to the track once a month (or more often). You have to teach him how to race. And once he gets good, the cars get more and more expensive. And the travel takes you farther and farther from home. An Andretti parent would tolerate all that because racing is "in his blood." A typical middle class parent will just put their kid in some more convenient sport.

[JACK CUST]

I did not mean to imply that the go-karts were cheap or that tons of kids were doing it.

[AquaSwing]

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Thremp- Whoever can afford a go-kart, basically.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, you can just buy a go-kart. But it's more than just that. Your 7 year old wants to race, so you get him a go kart. But you also have to take him to the track once a month (or more often). You have to teach him how to race. And once he gets good, the cars get more and more expensive. And the travel takes you farther and farther from home. An Andretti parent would tolerate all that because racing is "in his blood." A typical middle class parent will just put their kid in some more convenient sport.

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And people wonder why Americans suck at the international level of racing. Brazil, Germany, England, etc. all have lots and lots of kart racing leagues for kids. If we had such a system I would imagine our talent pool would be much greater.