legality of this type of home game? No rake, but a monthly fee?

MatthewD · #1 10-15-2007, 05:56 PM

Here is what i was thinking.

Step 1: Start a poker club with a $50/monthly fee
Step 2: Use the monthly fee to rent out an apartment or office
Step 3: Hold poker games with no rake in the rented out place.
Step 4: Optional dealers who are either paid from the monthly dues, or work for tips only.

Has anyone done anything like this?

Small Fry · #2 10-15-2007, 06:09 PM

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...2&fpart=all

Similiar concept. Cross posted in Brick and Mortar too.

MatthewD · #3 10-15-2007, 06:14 PM

Simila, but totally different.

That idea has a raked game, and the bar profits from the rake of the game.

In a 'club' game, no one makes a profit from the betting itself.

psandman · #4 10-15-2007, 06:23 PM

Every state staute that i have read on the subject would not treat this situation any different then a raked game.

However I have not looked at all 50 states stautes so it is possible that there is some place this would be kosher, but I doubt it.

allbad · #5 10-15-2007, 10:26 PM

in Texas, yes this is illegal. No one can gain economic benefit from the game. This means technically tipping the dealer when you win a pot is illegal. This means tipping the waitress who brought you a free drink makes it illegal. Charging a monthly fee is certainly illegal. But this is in Texas, the state of which our game is named after.

WaywardAce · #6 10-15-2007, 10:56 PM

I would call it a social club or country club instead of a poker club.

Zetack · #7 10-16-2007, 09:59 AM

I've never looked at any statutes for a state where a game is legal if not raked but illegal if raked, since in my state, it makes no difference wether a game is raked or not. So I couldn't tell you if this would get you around an only raked game is illegal statute.

You are aware that poker is regulated on a state by state basis right? There are fifty different applicable laws depending on what state you are in. Are you really expecting advice without letting us know where you plan to do this?

Zetack · #8 10-16-2007, 10:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
in Texas, yes this is illegal. No one can gain economic benefit from the game. This means technically tipping the dealer when you win a pot is illegal. This means tipping the waitress who brought you a free drink makes it illegal. Charging a monthly fee is certainly illegal. But this is in Texas, the state of which our game is named after.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can the players gain, or is it illegal of somebody wins?

allbad · #9 10-16-2007, 07:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Can the players gain, or is it illegal of somebody wins?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes a player can gain. So in Texas, it is written in law that it is a "Defense to prosecution" if the three conditions are met:

1. it is in a private setting,

2. each player has an equal chance at winning, AND

3. non players gain economic benefit from the game.

(they may be out of order or worded a little differently)

What I find interesting is there's a pretty big free-roll pub poker scene here that basically ignores the 1st and 3rd condition technically. Also note it is a "Defense to prosecution" which means your home game can still be raided and all monies confiscated, and it's up to you to prove you're not running an illegal casino. So far this has been rare in Austin... not so much in Dallas and now Houston from what I hear.

ok i better stop before this thread gets moved to the legislation forum.

OutOfCrown · #10 10-16-2007, 07:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can the players gain, or is it illegal of somebody wins?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes a player can gain. So in Texas, it is written in law that it is a "Defense to prosecution" if the three conditions are met:

1. it is in a private setting,

2. each player has an equal chance at winning, AND

3. non players gain economic benefit from the game.

(they may be out of order or worded a little differently)

What I find interesting is there's a pretty big free-roll pub poker scene here that basically ignores the 1st and 3rd condition technically. Also note it is a "Defense to prosecution" which means your home game can still be raided and all monies confiscated, and it's up to you to prove you're not running an illegal casino. So far this has been rare in Austin... not so much in Dallas and now Houston from what I hear.

ok i better stop before this thread gets moved to the legislation forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have a typo in your condition 3 (non players must gain NO economic benefit from the game).

At least one free roll poker league in Texas sought an opinion from the attorney general and got it (ruled: legal). The key for those leagues is that there is no buy-in, which renders the games legal under some other clause (can't remember the details).

Coming back to home game topics/rake: -- despite all the Hollywood renditions of dramatic legal cases turning on the slightest nit picking technicalities, the courts will generally take a very dim view of some wink-wink/nudge-nudge garbage reasoning. You can take something that is red and claim it is merely a "very very high velocity receding blue", but that isn't going to make it blue in the eyes of the court.

If the fundamental purpose of whatever fee structure you are proposing is for the house to make money from the poker players, then it's going to be viewed (legally) as a rake. Whether you call it a membership fee, a chair reservation fee, a prepaid jackpot raffle pool, or any other clever scheme -- if it in any way is a scheme for a business to make money from a poker game then it is probably illegal.

The free poker leagues get by on this because no one is required to buy drinks. If there were a cover charge during the free bar poker games, that would probably be illegal. If there were a "two drink minimum" that would DEFINITELY be illegal.