Pot control in position

[nomdeplume]

Let's say I open raise AQ from MP and only the BB calls (assume 100BB stacks). He's a typcial aggressive online player who is likely to min raise my cbet with any pair/good draw/weak draw/overcards/.

The flop comes Q78 two suited. I want to get some value with what is probably the best hand at the moment, but I don't want to lose my stack on this moderately coordinated flop, so some pot control may be in order. My opponent checks.

Question:
Should I check behind on the flop and call two psb on the turn and river/value bet river if he checks?

Or should I cbet the flop as usual, hoping he doesn't raise and check behind on the turn?

My problem is that if he checkraises the flop then the pot is already getting sizeable. If he bets the turn too then I'm committing myself with a single pair if I call him down.

On the other hand if I check behind on the flop I give him a free card to beat me, although I also possibly induce a bluff from my aggressive opponent.

Or should I cbet and call a min raise, but shut down after that? This approach seems horribly weak to me though. Thinking about it I suppose I'm veering to checking through the flop, since this also gives my opponent a chance to bluff.

The reason I'm asking this question is because I tend to end up overcommitting with these kind of hands, and also overpairs (I'm sure I'm not alone here).

What factors go into deciding which decision is best?

Thanks in advance from (yet another) NL newb.

[MAxx]

I do not see how you cannot cbet this flop. What were you hoping for? How could giving a free card help you? If he plays back at you, you may have to make a judgement...but not betting this flop with AQ seems bad.

[kaby]

you're ignoring that playing for stacks with TPTK on this type of flop vs this type of player is OK (imho)

i'm cbetting (almost) pot, if he minraises i'm 3betting

checking the flop isn't an option, folding to the minraise isn't an option, calling the minraise generally is not the best plan because his range is draws so much - i can see arguments for calling minraise and re-evaluating turn though - so just get it in on the flop when you both like your hand, he'll fold or have a naked flushdraw or some overplayed pair hand often enough

[James.]

what i really need to know is HOW MUCH you open raised for with AQ. 4x, 6x? pot size has everything to do with our decision-making in hold em(NL and limit). in this spot it matters a bit less, but we should still be able to assess a tighter range if he called a 6 or 8xbb raise versus a 3 or 4xbb raise.

if he's c/r such a wide range of hands on such a drawy board, why is committing with TPTK a problem? sure it's going to be uncomfortable, but as long as it's our most profitable play we need to make it.

i could see checking the turn for pot control, but if we can induce a bluffraise/semibluffraise on the turn that's a good thing, right?

[nomdeplume]

Thanks to everyone for the excellent replies.

Yes, I think I'm taking this "don't get stacked with a single pair" advice a bit too much to heart and playig like a wuss as a result.

It's interesting that everyone thinks stacking off with TPTK is fine versus an aggressive opponent. I understand they're more likely to make a play at you, but in my experience (only 30K hands at 50NL Full Tilt, so not much to go on admittedly) even aggressive players tend only to stack off with two pair or better. Of course they also push with draws, but even then they often have decent equity. It's certainly true that the occasional donk will stack off with some dominated hand, but on the whole I'd say most players tend not to.

This is what worries me about three betting the flop, it leaves me committed if he pushes or calls/pushes the turn. At least folding seems very weak in that situation. Surely nobody but the fishiest players are going to stack off with a worse hand than TPTK in that situation? Am I wrong?

(I'm assuming by the way that although this player is aggressive on the flop, he's not a total fish. This is the kind of player I seem to face at Full Tilt most of the time.)

But the alternative seems to be calling the mini raise and either value betting the turn or checking behind depending on the card that comes. This also seems sensible and less committal, but am I just losing value and 'playing to his tune' by doing so?

By the way James, I always open raise 4xbb so I guess his range will be fairly wide.

I actually posted this after reading Ed Miller's article on pot control from his website. Read the paragraph entilted "Control the Pot". He seems to be suggesting that as a default you shouldn't stack off against an aggressive opponent, or am I misunderstanding something?

Thanks

[diebitter]

I don't think getting it all in for stacks for TPTK is ever a great plan except to a steamer or someone you have a clear read on (the most common way bad lags stack off is when they push back with a draw, and it doesn't hit on the river - some just cannot let go at that point, so watch for that read and use it when you can). It's fine if he or you only have say a quarter stack, otherwise take it easy and pot control.

[nomdeplume]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think getting it all in for stacks for TPTK is ever a great plan except to a steamer or someone you have a clear read on (the most common way bad lags stack off is when they push back with a draw, and it doesn't hit on the river - some just cannot let go at that point, so watch for that read and use it when you can). It's fine if he or you only have say a quarter stack, otherwise take it easy and pot control.

[/ QUOTE ]

Die Bitter,

Thanks for replying, what you say is what I thought was the case. I've just been looking at Gordon's Little Green Book again, and he also doesn't consider TPTK one of the "Hands to go to war with".

So going back to my original question. Assuming I want to use some pot control, is it better to check behind on the flop or the turn?

I've watched a number of Stoxtrader vids and I've seen him do both with single pair hands. Does it matter whether I check behind on the flop or wait until the turn? Should I just mix it up?

It seems kind of odd not to bet the flop when I'm in position, since I tend to cbet almost 100% of the time in this case unless the flop is absolutely horrid for my hand. So doesn't checking behind on the flop give away the fact I have a hand? Or maybe I'm cbetting too much?

On the other hand what's the plan if I bet the flop and get raised?

If it's a mini-raise (as it often seems to be at these limits) I guess I can just call the raise and check behind on the turn if he lets me. The pot on the flop will be about 8bb, I bet 6 and he mini-raises to 12. If I call I'm investing 16bb altogether, which according to the Sunny Mehta book doesn't leave me committed (1/3 of my stack isn't committed yet).

But if he raises the pot on the flop it's a lot closer. I bet 6 into the 8bb pot on the flop, he raises the pot to 26. Now calling costs me 30bb altogether, which is close to a third of my stack. This is where I tend to think "what the hell, I can't fold now" and call his turn push only to find I'm facing two pair or a set. Still, I haven't committed a third of my stack yet, so I guess I should still be able to get away from this hand.

I suppose an alternative would be just to raise less preflop and/or make my cbets a bit smaller. This would make the pot smaller on the flop even if I call a raise and so make it easier psychologically for me to get away from the hand.

Any thoughts? Thanks

[diebitter]

Woah, too much there.


Don't raise less or bet less. That's no way to build pots when you're good, or to really help define villains' hands.

Basically, the time to get aggro when you don't hit is the flop, if at all; in or out of position. A nifty trick if you're on a draw OOP is to check, and min-checkraise back if c-betted to - that often gets you to the river without any more money going in, AND makes your opponent put you on a made hand rather than a draw.

C-betting in position on the flop is absolutely correct most of the time, just like you say. That doesn't mean you're going to war, it means you're looking like you're getting ready to go to war while the bets are still relatively small.


After that, it depends on the villain(s) and table dynamic. Loosen up A BIT against looseys, tighten up against TAGs, but think about it long and hard once you get to the commitment threshhold.


wrt to a c-bet then minraise - minraises are at the moment underused as a bluff and overused as a pot-building tactic that stops people mucking their hands early, so can often to be taken as a signal that he's intending to try and stack you. Decent, watchful players are of course now using minraises because they know other decent players are well aware of this, so you get BIG leverage compared to the little amount your adding (if you minraise instead call, that is) if you're against a decent player. So...Play as such.

However, things change. A year ago, everyone overloved Axs even from early, now everyone overloves suited connectors from middle onwards, so in 6 months time, minraising the flop might be in every donk's arsenal, for all I know.

my 2c.

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
Woah, too much there.


Don't raise less or bet less. That's no way to build pots when you're good, or to really help define villains' hands.

Basically, the time to get aggro when you don't hit is the flop, if at all; in or out of position. A nifty trick if you're on a draw OOP is to check, and min-checkraise back if c-betted to - that often gets you to the river without any more money going in, AND makes your opponent put you on a made hand rather than a draw.

C-betting in position on the flop is absolutely correct most of the time, just like you say. That doesn't mean you're going to war, it means you're looking like you're getting ready to go to war while the bets are still relatively small.


After that, it depends on the villain(s) and table dynamic. Loosen up A BIT against looseys, tighten up against TAGs, but think about it long and hard once you get to the commitment threshhold.


wrt to a c-bet then minraise - minraises are at the moment underused as a bluff and overused as a pot-building tactic that stops people mucking their hands early, so can often to be taken as a signal that he's intending to try and stack you. Decent, watchful players are of course now using minraises because they know other decent players are well aware of this, so you get BIG leverage compared to the little amount your adding (if you minraise instead call, that is) if you're against a decent player. So...Play as such.

However, things change. A year ago, everyone overloved Axs even from early, now everyone overloves suited connectors from middle onwards, so in 6 months time, minraising the flop might be in every donk's arsenal, for all I know.

my 2c.

[/ QUOTE ]

good stuff.

[kaby]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think getting it all in for stacks for TPTK is ever a great plan ... otherwise take it easy and pot control.

[/ QUOTE ]

you want to call the minraise when his range is mostly draws? what happened to protecting the best hand?

you're the nl guys but this seems weird to me, every card between a 4 and a J is a scarecard + every heart so vs an aggro guy you are getting bluffed out a lot