4-flush and two villains

Aaron W. · #1 08-27-2006, 02:06 AM

The purpose of checking the turn was to call but not overcall a river bet. Good idea or bad idea? Should I have just bet-folded the turn?

Paradise Poker 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: (6.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

kerowo · #2 08-27-2006, 02:09 AM

I don't mind the turn check, you aren't getting anyone to fold that's ahead of you. I doubt you are good 1 time in 8 on the river.

Rushinankil · #3 08-27-2006, 07:28 AM

With BB calling two bets cold after you raised the flop, I'd put him on the nut flush draw.

On the turn, I'd have checked as well as I'd have put BB on the flush and was looking for the check raise.

Finally on the river when the BB bet out I'd have just simply folded.

knockonwood · #4 08-27-2006, 07:35 AM

Theres a flush draw, straight draw and possible two pair out there. I bet the turn and fold if raised.

If i'd taken your line, its a definate call on the river.

Christian_Peters · #5 08-27-2006, 07:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't mind the turn check, you aren't getting anyone to fold that's ahead of you. I doubt you are good 1 time in 8 on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree.

I think the b/f line is much better on the turn. Here's why - basically, on a 3 flush flop, villain will lead out with many non-flush or non-FD made hands like 2 pair or TP or a flopped str8 - he even sometimes bets out with his flopped OESD. A flop of 9TJ will hit a ton of hands that someone limps with UTG. Basically, the line is b/f because there's such a good chance the other two are not liking the diamonds too much and you may even get a better hand to fold. And it's a pretty easy muck when you get c/r.

And to the poster who thinks BB is obviously on the Nut flush draw after calling two cold: He is the BB. He did call a raise PF but that doesn't mean he did it with the Ad or even the Kd or Qd.

knockonwood · #6 08-27-2006, 08:14 AM

You can win if you bet, if you get raised, (by the average player) you can fold. What aren't I seeing here?

goofball · #7 08-27-2006, 08:36 AM

Wow there are people with 56k posts i'venever heard of.

I think betting the turn is best. You might get hands drawing live to fold, you can definitely fold to a raise, and betting is fun.

Aaron W. · #8 08-27-2006, 02:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The purpose of checking the turn was to call but not overcall a river bet. Good idea or bad idea? Should I have just bet-folded the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't bet-fold the turn for the following reason: Between the UTG donk and the BB coldcall, one of them has a flush draw 95ish% of the time. So maybe 5ish% of the time I can squeeze a tiny bit of value out of them, but the rest of the time I'm just throwing my money away.

By checking and leaving open the possibility of check-folding, I save that BB a good percent of the time. My gut reflex is at least 25% of the time I can get away on the river for free. This saves me more than what I would win with a turn (value) bet.

Also, checking the turn can sometimes induce a bet by a worse hand (say QJ) thinking that nobody actually has the flush. This is why I elect to call but not overcall. The river card was a very welcomed card because now I sucked out on JT/T9/J9, which are all reasonable hands for villains to have.

Sarge85 · #9 08-27-2006, 02:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The purpose of checking the turn was to call but not overcall a river bet. Good idea or bad idea? Should I have just bet-folded the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't overcall a river bet - so you're spot on there.

And I'd much rather bet-fold the turn - Your only going to spend one bet to see a showdown - If you find yourself putting in anymore than that - your beat, so you need to make that decision on the turn, not the river.

If you bet the turn, and get called, and then led into on the river - I don't call the bet. Even if UTG folds on the river.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

drzen · #10 08-27-2006, 07:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The purpose of checking the turn was to call but not overcall a river bet. Good idea or bad idea? Should I have just bet-folded the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't bet-fold the turn for the following reason: Between the UTG donk and the BB coldcall, one of them has a flush draw 95ish% of the time. So maybe 5ish% of the time I can squeeze a tiny bit of value out of them, but the rest of the time I'm just throwing my money away.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then calling the river is clearly an error and you're throwing your money away there instead.