*ATTN Winstar Players*

[hime]

Yeah, because the max comp you can get to my understanding is $6... so maybe that exact number was arrived at through confusion.

[BCtheVC]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, because the max comp you can get to my understanding is $6... so maybe that exact number was arrived at through confusion.

[/ QUOTE ]

$6??? The floor at the Riverwind poker room in Norman, OK are more generous I guess. I get comps to the buffet every time I ask. The Friday buffet is the best because they have crab legs, crawfish, and prime rib that's really good. A $20 value on Fridays, buffet is like $12 other days.

[PrimogenitoX]

Quite frankly the Winstar poker room is the biggest [censored] joke on the planet. They basically have a monopoly on the Dallas market and now you can see the reason for antitrust laws. I have so many many example of the incompetence of Winstar that I could write a 10 page post.

I played all this weekend. The only game I played was 10/25NL. I played it full. I played it HU. I played it 3 handed. The dealers were absolutely horrible. One dealer failed to recognize that 65 beats 95 on a JJ652 board. She insisted on pushing the pot to 95 and even called the floor when we all insisted that a pair of 6s beats a pair of 5s. I am not making this up.

Another dealer tried to push a 4kish pot to 98 high despite the winner tabling a pair. Another dealer prematurely dealt a card, in a big pot, TWICE in one down. This is in a [censored] 10/25NL game. When I requested that we pay time in the game while short, it was refused. When I requested a rake reduction below $3 while HU, it was refused. When I requested they stop stealing $1 from us every hand while shorthanded they refused.

Another huge problem is the inconsistency of floor decisions. I had have had floors make 4-5 different rulings on the exact same issue. My buddy once had the floor make a blatantly wrong ruling in a 5/10NL game. I was out of a hand and sweating him and I told the floor that I was 100% sure he was blatantly wrong. They called another floor over. That other floor also made the same ruling. My friend and I were completely adamant they were just wrong. Obviously the floor responds gruffly that his ruling is final. THIRTY minutes later the shift manager tells my friend that they checked the rulebook and we are actually right. Another dealer I retold this story to said; "They have a rulebook??" Will they compensate him for their mistake? Yea right...

About 3 weeks ago I played a $10K pot in the 10/25 game. We got it all on the flop and BOTH my opponent and I wanted to run it twice. The floor said it was not allowed. That was the first time in my life any cardroom I have ever played in the entire world refused to accomodate this request in a bigger game. They wouldn't even "unofficially" flash us the 2nd turn and river so this player and I could do business on the side.

I could tell more stories but you get the jist of all this. Winstar is a fine place to play lower limits I guess. But for the bigger action they claim the desire to attract, they are wholly incompetent and completely lacking integrity. It's kangaroo country up north.


P.S. I am sure we can get 2+2 moderator ZBTHorton to make a sidenote about the infamous blind structure debacle from the Red River Roundup yesterday.

[sirtimo]

[ QUOTE ]

P.S. I am sure we can get 2+2 moderator ZBTHorton to make a sidenote about the infamous blind structure debacle from the Red River Roundup yesterday.

[/ QUOTE ]

do tell?????

[ZBTHorton]

Yea. The whole tournament was kinda [censored] up.

We get to the final two tables, and here are the blinds.

5/10K
6/12K
7/14K
8/16K
9/18K
10/20K

So then we get to the final table. I get sucked out on in a MASSIVE pot, and look over at the board. Instead of 12/24K. Or 15/30K. The blinds double to 20/40K....and the whole final table turns into the biggest [censored] crapshoot ever. After 20/40K...you guessed it. 40/80K.

[TxRedMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm 99% sure that it doesn't cost money to get a players card. I've just never gotten one because it doesn't seem to offer any real advantage to me.

No casino pays out the full jackpot, I've read other threads on here that say as much - it's a buffer for the casino to ride the float.

As for complaining about the rake, I have to find it funny that a 5/10 PLO player is complaining about it, but then I play 4/8 limit and 5/10 O8.

You sound a lot like a guy I was talking to the other day who was saying he could bring a 20/40 game to the room but he would want the rake dropped to $4 instead of $5. Uh, ok...

[/ QUOTE ]


I never spoke to you about a 20/40 game. If I ever have enough clout in Texas to get a game together on a regular basis, I'll open my own room or take the game to a place that respects the players. You couldn't pay me to send players up to that bleeding [censored] hole. When Texas legalizes poker, I have every intention of opening a room that gives poker players a fair shake. As a business owner and a poker player, I'm apphauled at the practices in some poker rooms, and the utter lack of common sense and intelligence displayed in some rooms, Winstar especially. It's almost as if some junior college MBA wannabe is running that room, someone with no poker experience, and no business sense. If they legalize poker in Texas, I promise you Winstar's poker room will be a ghost town.


But I really want you to understand the following point, please read it carefully and really try and think about what i'm saying, because it applies to you and everyone else, and it has a huge impact on your hobby or career as a poker player.


When I first started playing, I didn't care what the rake was. I was excited to drag a pot, and I didn't care about the rake, and I used to tip $5 per pot. I was a losing player at that time. Then I found twoplustwo, I got chastised in the forums, and I started to analyze my game and grow as a player. Slowly I started to realize lots of things. One of them was that I played a lot of poker, and I paid a lot of rake. I realized at that point I had played live poker for a year, and that I had likely paid $30,000 in rake alone, combined with an estimated $15,000 in tips. I realized that if I didn't have to pay the rake, I would have been a winning player that year. Then I started comparing the rake in my underground Dallas game to the same game in different places. I realized that in the same game online, I would have only paid about $10,000 in rake, plus I wouldn't have tipped a dealer, making me a winner for the year. The same game in Las Vegas or Los Angeles would have cost me about $15,000 in rake. So if I had been playing somewhere besides Dallas, I would have been a small loser, and if I had been playing online I would have been a decent winner.


At that point I also realized I'll be playing poker for as long as I have the ability to do so, and that I'll be paying rake as long as I do. So where I give my action is dependent upon the competition and the rake. Just to give you an idea of how abusrd your comment about a 5/10 PLO player complaining about rake is- if I gave my action for the next ten years to Winstar at their current rake, the difference in dollars would be roughly $150,000 in comparison to the legal card rooms elsewhere in the country. Just because you might see me dragging a $5000 pot doesn't mean I'm playing at stakes that are impervious to the rake.



That's what recreational players dont understand. It's one game, and it never stops, right? We've all heard that before. Stop thinking about the $150 pot you just dragged in your $4-$8 game, and start thinking about the thousands of pots you'll drag over your tenure as a player, and think about the long term effect of what that extra rake does to your bankroll. I can pay $12 per hour at The Wynn and earn $1.50 per hour in food comps, and I can assure you that Steve Wynn isn't running a poker room that's losing money. He makes money off that room. Same goes for the Bellagio. They've got the biggest market in Las Vegas, they make money, and they dont rip off the players like Winstar does. So why does some greedy and poorly run poker room in Oklahoma get away with charging double, triple, sometimes more than quadruple the rake for the same games while simultaneously being cheap and greedy with a simple food comp? You have a voice, and you have a choice. If you want to play at Winstar I have no problem with it, but for the sake of the poker community, please consider forming an opinion on the rake they're raking and compare it to other casinos, and then write a letter. I wrote a letter this morning.


For me, I'd rather play online or spend more time in Las Vegas than pony up to the table feeling like some sucker giving action to someone who might as well be laughing in my face.




-Tex

[TxRedMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, because the max comp you can get to my understanding is $6... so maybe that exact number was arrived at through confusion.

[/ QUOTE ]


me: can i get a food comp

him: sure, you have players card?

me: no

him: you need players card

me: okay, well i'll get one

him: it's $6

me: you're kidding right?

him: (shakes head) no

me: it costs $6 to get a players card to get a $6 comp?

him: (shakes head up and down)

other player: yeah it's $6 to get the card


me: what a [censored] joke, no thanks, i'm through playing in this room



Here's my take on that: There's 500 players in the room yesterday, maybe? If they charge $6 for a players card during their big tournament or whatever, they might save several thousand dollars in food comps, plus they get info on all their players so they can spam you with junkmail.


I'm betting they decided to start charging for the players card so they wouldn't get hit with so many comps during their busiest time.


They're greedy bastards. That's all there is to it.



[censored] Winstar.


Boycott that [censored] hole.

[PrimogenitoX]

Well, I got a player's card yesterday actually for free...I got it at the front entrance though...but thats just nitpickery...I agree with everything else you have written...very well thought out response Tex...I have always known what you wrote in regards to what I pay a year in rake; I just never fleshed it out in writing as well as you have.

[Dealer-Guy]

You are concerned about rake while playing PL and NL games. Okay, fair enough but not so concerned that you weren't willing to pay the rake for BOTH players in Las Vegas! What is that all about anyway?


[ QUOTE ]
So last week playing HU 40/80 NL at Wynn I'm paying for both of us, $12/hr,

[/ QUOTE ]


There is no charge for the players card, period. You made that up or you did not understand the man who you spoke to. Taking time to make sure what you heard is what he said can be troublesome.

Of course, since you hate the room, it sounds much better to say something like it costs money to get a free card.

Since the $6 card issue is false, the rest of your posting is suspect as well, I won't waste time on it.

Since you have chosen to not return to WinStar, we can go ahead and have the party now.

Just pick up that bullet proof vest before going to your favorite underground room next time.

Dealer Guy

One player per hand, one dealer per table please!

[TxRedMan]

[ QUOTE ]
You are concerned about rake while playing PL and NL games. Okay, fair enough but not so concerned that you weren't willing to pay the rake for BOTH players in Las Vegas! What is that all about anyway?


[ QUOTE ]
So last week playing HU 40/80 NL at Wynn I'm paying for both of us, $12/hr,

[/ QUOTE ]


There is no charge for the players card, period. You made that up or you did not understand the man who you spoke to. Taking time to make sure what you heard is what he said can be troublesome.

Of course, since you hate the room, it sounds much better to say something like it costs money to get a free card.

Since the $6 card issue is false, the rest of your posting is suspect as well, I won't waste time on it.

Since you have chosen to not return to WinStar, we can go ahead and have the party now.

Just pick up that bullet proof vest before going to your favorite underground room next time.

Dealer Guy

One player per hand, one dealer per table please!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to detail why I bothered to pay the time for me and my opponent in a 40/80 NL game. That's obvious to anyone who's opinion I might care about and it has nothing to do with this situation.


I assume you deal at Winstar. Good for you. My quarrell isn't with you. But I will address your closing remark, "one dealer to a table, one player to a hand". Yesterday I was the only person at the table who was able to inform players how much they could bet or raise in the 2-5 PLO game. The dealers sat down and immediately let us know they'd barely ever dealt PLO. Someone at the table always pointed to me and I told the dealer I'd be happy to assist them with the game. One of the dealers asked me if I was a dealer, and even the floor paused when asked for a decision, looked at me for my reponse, then proceeded to provide the table with the response I had given him.


So, it would be nice if it were one dealer to a table, but that wasn't the case, was it?


Also, I'm not making up the $6 card thing. The guy speaks terrible english so perhaps I misunderstood him, but i'm not exaggerating or fabricating what happened.


Whatever the case, if you do deal at Winstar, you just demonstrated what's wrong with the room. Myself, a player, came to this forum and posted in an honest and straightforward manner what I thought to be wrong with the room, and much of it has been confirmed by other posters. You strut in here with the attitude that my opinion is false and that you could care less about me not playing at Winstar, which, seems to be the general attitude towards players at your facility, and you offer no solution or possible resolution for the particular situation I'm speaking of, the outrageous rake.

I'm not here to tar and feather your poker room. I'm here to inform players that they're not getting what they deserve, in fact, they're getting ripped off, and they need to consider their position in this matter, and they need to know that over the long run, the inflated rake and pissant comps will have a huge impact on their financial position as a poker player, and they need to know that Winstar is not a good poker room, it's not even a mediocre poker room, it's the worst I've ever played at and I've played all over this country.





-Tex