I'm confused, bottom two on a drawy flop.

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]
So you guys don't attach much signficance to the fact that the raise is less than 1/2 pot with tons of money behind on a flop where the nuts is very vulnerable, and with three others already active in the pot?

Honest question. To me it seems like some kind of 'probing' raise or pot building raise with a flush draw or something... anything but a set or top two.

But I have never played deep stack live NL... maybe people just get weird.

[/ QUOTE ]

his raise size here is just bad, it doesn't make any sense with any hand, don't think about it too hard or try to get too much information out of it. a flush draw reopening the betting with 3 opponents in the hand with such a small raise it has no fold equity is even dumber than a set or jt doing it. and i agree w/ everyone that its a fold.

[BobboFitos]

[censored] folding

[mikech]

you guys saying fold have gotta be joking. and lol @ villain having JJ.

[AZK]

bobbo, mike - THANK YOU.

KoD, AJ - the gym is something like $25/day...huge [censored] rip off. It still angers me that you can be in a place like vegas where everything is $$$$ and still be forced to pay to use the gym or wireless.

[Marnixvdb]

On the turn, I wouldnt really want to see a A K Q J 9 8 7 or a spade, lol. That's a lot of cards but since his particular hand is only hit by a few of those cards, i'd still raise the flop, fold to a 4 bet, bet any turn except for the J if checked to and fold to a c/r and probably check river behind if we ever get there. Seems like a good balance between getting value and defining villain's hand. while keeping him guessing.

If any of the other guys stays involed after you 3 bet flop, hand is over for you.

[ipokeder]

uhh this seems like a ridiculously easy fold, yes if the flop were the last street of poker we'd have to play we'd easily be good here often enough to continue in the hand, but the fact is that we have to paly 2 more streets with 4 players behind us, our hand has no way of improving and is hurt significantly by a LOT of cards. even if we are ahead, or have proper equity to call HU vs the raiser, the fact that there are so many players behind us and the flop is so draw heavy just make any play other than folding unprofitable. we just simply cannot play turn/rivers profitably, esp if more people come along (which they almost inevitably will considering how many draws are on this flop)

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
bobbo, mike - THANK YOU.

KoD, AJ - the gym is something like $25/day...huge [censored] rip off. It still angers me that you can be in a place like vegas where everything is $$$$ and still be forced to pay to use the gym or wireless.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hate being nickeled and dimed, so at the venetian when i stayed there i called down and said, 'this is ridic, comp me the internet'. and they did.

people are fairly accomodating if you just ask in my experience.

[DeMaci]

I'd stick in a raise, you guys are so deep, folding this is just absolutely terrible. Make it $500 or $600 more.

[AcidKnight]

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, I wouldnt really want to see a A K Q J 9 8 7 or a spade, lol. That's a lot of cards but since his particular hand is only hit by a few of those cards, i'd still raise the flop, fold to a 4 bet, bet any turn except for the J if checked to and fold to a c/r and probably check river behind if we ever get there. Seems like a good balance between getting value and defining villain's hand. while keeping him guessing.

If any of the other guys stays involed after you 3 bet flop, hand is over for you.

[/ QUOTE ]
Raise to $700. If anyone but the BB stays involved, you should be done with the hand. If the BB sticks around, I'm probably betting any non-J turn as Marnixvdb stated above.

[damedley]

The BB is either on a draw or he's absolutely lost his mind. I think the bet does make some sense as a semi-bluff. Look at how many people are advocating folding two pair here, which is most likely the best hand. He's squeezing you, and you're the right person to squeeze.

Calling is the absolute worst option here - no question. There is no card that can give you the nuts. Only four cards improve your hand and the only one that will really make you happy is the six of spades. Your more immediate concern is getting squeezed again! If you just call here you're making the pot big enough to let draws call, made hands raise, and even the CO or button might raise on a draw thinking your call is weak!

Folding is the best option. Raising is a possibility, but you really want the hand over right now and to get that done you're going to have to invest a lot of money. It sucks to let two pair slip away, especially when everyone in this hand seems pretty weak. But there's just not enough out there (pot is only 1/8th of Villain's stack) and there are too many players in the hand. Even though most of the time you have the best made hand here the times you don't will crush you.

That said, raising is an option. The CO and button almost have to fold. Putting myself in their shoes I could maybe even get away from third set here. You bet out, got check-raised and re-raised?!? That's strong. Now if the CO or button call with a draw or even top two or third set they've got to be concerned about the check-raiser. If they had monster hands they'd have raised already. I'd raise enough to give the BB almost correct odds to chase a flush draw or open ender. The reasons for the bet size, which some might think too small, are twofold:

1) You absolutely have to get away from this if another raise is made.
2) You're going to have position on the BB. He's going to be even more confused about what you have than you are about what he has. You want to take it down right now, but the hand is playable in position against one opponent.

I count $465 in the pot, so a raise of $400 more should do it. Now the CO and button have to call $540 (with no guarantee that's the end of it), and if they fold the BB will be making an optimistic call out of position.

Note, though, that you're putting in $540 to win $465 if everyone folds, which is really what you want on the flop. Bigger raises mean you're laying even worse odds.