Do you want to have children?

[Henry17]

[ QUOTE ]
Henry, your worldview has been confusing me this entire thread, but this one takes the cake. Everything we parents have been telling you is the exact opposite of this. YOU are the one trying to convince himself. We need no convincing at all, we're experiencing it, and we pretty much unanimously agree. But then, I guess that's what those of us in a cult do, right

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not trying to convince myself or anyone else of anything. I know what I want. I hope other people also know what they want. I would never try to convince someone that not having children is the correct choice.

The issue I have is that as soon as someone states they do not want children the majority of parents come out claiming it is the wrong decision, you'll change your mind, you'll regret it. This need to universalize their personal life choices is what I find objectionable.

[BPA234]

[ QUOTE ]
You're arguing semantics, Henry. The reason you don't want children is because you are selfish. It's all about you. How your life will be affected, how it will be a burden to you, how bored you will be.

You have been told the positives. You've been told how positively life-changing children are, but you don't believe it. All you can see are the negatives, which of course there are, but we are telling you they are far outweighed by the positives. You simply refuse to see it. Why is that? Because you're selfish. You don't want to see it.

That's cool, man. You are who you are. And with your attitude, it's doubtful you'd make even a mediocre parent. You can justify it by semantics if you wish, and if it makes you feel better. But a spade is still a spade, even if you insist it's a shovel.

[/ QUOTE ]

For most people, having kids is a selfish act. That list that was given was definitely selfish-driven. Just because Henry doesn't want to have kids, doesn't make him any more or less selfish than those who want to have kids.

[RoundGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
This need to universalize their personal life choices is what I find objectionable.

[/ QUOTE ]
Much as I find the negative connotation that I belong to a "cult" objectionable. Whatever. To each his own.

I have also noticed that I'm the only parent in this thread today (at least it would seem). Unlike most Americans who have the day off, I'm working. I'm guessing all my co-patriots are spending quality time with their families. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[duckman]

[ QUOTE ]
Which is why parenthood was possabily the correct decision for you. I find all of the items listed either neutral or negative. Most of them I see as negative. There is not a single one I view as a positive.

[/ QUOTE ]
You asked for a specific list. I provided it.
You will note that I threw in points that to many would seem "negative".

I agree with you that these things are in the eye of the beholder, in other words subjective.

I had a prof in grad school whose name was Elizabeth Sawyer XXXX.I told here I liked her name.She asked why. I replied, why do I like strawberry jam but not plum-I don't know?

The same goes for having kids. Half of all marriages fail, and divorce is difficult on children.

Being there for your kids is much more than just providing financial support. They need your time as well. And there are no g'tees that they will be healthy or smashingly prosperous. Having children is a risky undertaking whose outcome you can only partially determine.

If you don't feel/intuit that kids are right for you then I agree they aren't and I have no need to convince you otherwise or judge you.

Oprah hasn't had any children but in my mind has lived a great life.

I encourage you to live the life that is most authentic to who you are and if kids are part of that - great, if they are not - equally great. Only you can tell what an authentic life means for you.

I wish you a happy and fulfilled life.

Best

[duckman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're arguing semantics, Henry. The reason you don't want children is because you are selfish. It's all about you. How your life will be affected, how it will be a burden to you, how bored you will be.

You have been told the positives. You've been told how positively life-changing children are, but you don't believe it. All you can see are the negatives, which of course there are, but we are telling you they are far outweighed by the positives. You simply refuse to see it. Why is that? Because you're selfish. You don't want to see it.

That's cool, man. You are who you are. And with your attitude, it's doubtful you'd make even a mediocre parent. You can justify it by semantics if you wish, and if it makes you feel better. But a spade is still a spade, even if you insist it's a shovel.

[/ QUOTE ]

For most people, having kids is a selfish act. That list that was given was definitely selfish-driven. Just because Henry doesn't want to have kids, doesn't make him any more or less selfish than those who want to have kids.

[/ QUOTE ]


I thing people need to be careful about reading things in from a few words or or jumping to conclusions too early. I think that is one of the things that is a truism in poker.

Actually I didn't want to have kids. My wife was hitting 30 and it became a tremendous priority for her. I was just about to go to graduate school and had the prospect of being (virtually) unemployed for 5 years (in a foreign counrty) - this was not particualry appealing to me.

Moreover, I had a terrible family life as a child where I was beaten physically and abused verbally growing up. My mother broke a broom over my head when I was 11 and one time beat me so hard with a leather belt that the buckle tore stripes in me and caused me to bleed all over my chest, back and buttocks- I couldn't sit down without wincing for 3 weeks.
My dad frequently told me I was good for nothing and wothless and that he regretted having me and that I would never amount to anything.

On top of this my parents divorced, so I was not particulary excited about building a family and I was terrified that I would be a substandard parent. I haven't spoken to my mother or brother for over 6 years. My father passed away 15 years ago.(Before we had kids)

I decided to go along with having kids, b/c it was either that or get divorced b/c otherwise I would have to live with someone whose dreams had been devestated.(When we got married 5 yrs earlier kids had not been a priority or desire to my wife -things changed).

I think having children was the best decision I have ever made. I have not regrets and never will. But it is an adventure and that adventure is not for everyone.

I agree with you that Henry not wanting kids does not necessarily make him selfish or narcisstic. But why then does me having kids or listing their benifits from personal experience necessarily make me selfish? This I don't understand.

It is interesting that you immediately thought that me having kids was selfish. I find this rather inconsistent from a logical standpoint.

[BPA234]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're arguing semantics, Henry. The reason you don't want children is because you are selfish. It's all about you. How your life will be affected, how it will be a burden to you, how bored you will be.

You have been told the positives. You've been told how positively life-changing children are, but you don't believe it. All you can see are the negatives, which of course there are, but we are telling you they are far outweighed by the positives. You simply refuse to see it. Why is that? Because you're selfish. You don't want to see it.

That's cool, man. You are who you are. And with your attitude, it's doubtful you'd make even a mediocre parent. You can justify it by semantics if you wish, and if it makes you feel better. But a spade is still a spade, even if you insist it's a shovel.

[/ QUOTE ]

For most people, having kids is a selfish act. That list that was given was definitely selfish-driven. Just because Henry doesn't want to have kids, doesn't make him any more or less selfish than those who want to have kids.

[/ QUOTE ]


I thing people need to be careful about reading things in from a few words or or jumping to conclusions too early. I think that is one of the things that is a truism in poker.

Actually I didn't want to have kids. My wife was hitting 30 and it became a tremendous priority for her. I was just about to go to graduate school and had the prospect of being (virtually) unemployed for 5 years (in a foreign counrty) - this was not particualry appealing to me.

Moreover, I had a terrible family life as a child where I was beaten physically and abused verbally growing up. My mother broke a broom over my head when I was 11 and one time beat me so hard with a leather belt that the buckle tore stripes in me and caused me to bleed all over my chest, back and buttocks- I couldn't sit down without wincing for 3 weeks.
My dad frequently told me I was good for nothing and wothless and that he regretted having me and that I would never amount to anything.

On top of this my parents divorced, so I was not particulary excited about building a family and I was terrified that I would be a substandard parent. I haven't spoken to my mother or brother for over 6 years. My father passed away 15 years ago.(Before we had kids)

I decided to go along with having kids, b/c it was either that or get divorced b/c otherwise I would have to live with someone whose dreams had been devestated.(When we got married 5 yrs earlier kids had not been a priority or desire to my wife -things changed).

I think having children was the best decision I have ever made. I have not regrets and never will. But it is an adventure and that adventure is not for everyone.

I agree with you that Henry not wanting kids does not necessarily make him selfish or narcisstic. But why then does me having kids or listing their benifits from personal experience necessarily make me selfish? This I don't understand.

It is interesting that you immediately thought that me having kids was selfish. I find this rather inconsistent from a logical standpoint.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's only inconsistent if you look at "selfish" as being a negative and equal in meaning to "inordinately selfish". Having kids so you can turn them into victims is inordinately selfish. Having kids so you can raise a family is selfish; not the same thing.

For the record, I think your list was great. I raised two kids and I can agree with all that you wrote. My objection was to RG's assertion that Henry is inordinately selfish for not wanting to have kids. I respect Henry's position more because he has at least given the subject thought and consideration. As opposed to most of us, who (myself included) are handed a script that we simply read from.

[qwnu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They have self-deluded themselves to make their situation work.

[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't it strange then that not one single parent has said they regret having children in this thread? Not one.

That means that EVERY SINGLE PARENT is delusional, or you're just talking out of your ass.

I choose the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it, but Ann Landers famously found that 70% of parents who responded to her question would not have children if they could make the decision again.

The column (from the '70s) is reprinted here on this "childfree" site.

Obviously this is somewhat dated, and not scientific, but it does demonstrate that the lack of regret you think is universal is not.

It's true that this example is used in at least one textbook as an example of an unreliable self-selected sample, but the same text says a scientific survey found that 91% of parents would have kids again. Quite a difference, but at the same time, 91% is not 100%. That's nearly 1 in 10 parents who have the regrets you are ignoring.

I'd be interested in finding similar "regret" stats for people who choose not to have children.

BTW, you seem to have changed your tune in this thread. Earlier, you said you don't think those who choose childlessness are defective, but you hope they don't later have regrets. Now, you declare that Henry has willfully refused to "see the light" as you see it, and is therefore selfish.

There's a recent politics thread titled "what's wrong with america (7 words or less)". My submission was "Everyone thinks his opinions should be mine." Seems apt in this situation. Childfree couples merely want to have their choice be acknowledged as reasonable and worthy of respect. Some parents want to have their choice acknowledged as correct.

[Kimbell175113]

[ QUOTE ]

My dad frequently told me I was good for nothing and wothless and that he regretted having me and that I would never amount to anything.

[/ QUOTE ]
See, RoundGuy, they exist!

Yes, that was 100% a joke, just like all the cult comments were. I'm not saying it's incorrect to have kids (obv, since I plan on having a few myself) and I'm not even saying that it's incorrect to try to share your satisfaction with others. But when you claim that your side of the argument is unassailable and magic, while the other side is loathsome and selfish, that's when I start to take exception.

[BPA234]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

My dad frequently told me I was good for nothing and wothless and that he regretted having me and that I would never amount to anything.

[/ QUOTE ]
See, RoundGuy, they exist!

Yes, that was 100% a joke, just like all the cult comments were. I'm not saying it's incorrect to have kids (obv, since I plan on having a few myself) and I'm not even saying that it's incorrect to try to share your satisfaction with others. But when you claim that your side of the argument is unassailable and magic, while the other side is loathsome and selfish, that's when I start to take exception.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

[Ser William]

[ QUOTE ]
I have also noticed that I'm the only parent in this thread today (at least it would seem). Unlike most Americans who have the day off, I'm working. I'm guessing all my co-patriots are spending quality time with their families.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO this thread should have been locked a long time ago. I'm not even sure what the OP is arguing anymore. Great, we get it, you don't want to have kids and you think parents are members of a giant cult. Yet almost none of the parents who have posted in this thread have tried to force the OP into thinking that his decision not to have kids is wrong. They merely state why THEY love kids and why it has been the best decision they have ever made.

IMO OP is kinda trolling right now. He has added nothing new to this thread since about post #5. Let's lock it up and move along.

EDIT- Just noticed that Henry isn't the OP. Oops. Just seems like he was since he took over the thread.