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  #1  
Old 10-27-2007, 04:26 AM
electrical electrical is offline
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Default Perverse hand

Here's one that will be debatable on every street. I'm going to post it without comment first, then let you guys chew it over for a while before I tell you what I was thinking on every decision point.

This is maybe the weirdest hand of Stud I've played in a year, and was heavily influenced by the table dynamics and player reads, which I think you all are smart enough to incorporate into your evaluation of it. I'm not offering that as an excuse, just explaining why some of the action may look odd at first glance. I am deadly curious what others think of this weird hand.

In the last hour, very few hands have been multi-way at this table, but players have paradoxically shown a marked disinclination to fold on Third or Fourth once they have entered a pot. Everybody (save seat 6) seems to be choosing a hand on Third and not bailing until Fifth. In practice this means that anybody in the hand on Third has some legitimate starting hand and he wants to see another card or two come hell or high water.

Reads:

Seat 1 is an easily tilted regular with poor drawing standards. Often plays one-way draws heads-up in small pots, calls down with losing two-pair hands, etc.

Seat 2 is a reasonable player I have played with a lot. She plays good hands relative to the structure, doesn't bluff her board much and usually thinks I have nothing, so she often calls me down light. That said, she probably doesn't think I'm insane, and is unwilling to get into confrontations multiway without a monster.

Seat 4 is a losing player with poor hand selection, and doesn't seem to track cards or read opponents' hands well, calling raises from behind, then calling additional bets, only to fold the river or complain and call expecting to lose.

Seat 6 is a chaotic, loose, bad player who is stuck more than 30 BB and is tilting badly. Though he took this hand off, I am in the game because he is. Part of the table's general tenacity early in the hands may be because of the huge overlay seat 6 provides when he plays.

Hero is probably seen as being tight (at the moment) and (overly) aggressive. I have played very few pots, and save for one checked river I lost, have only shown down winners, which I have aggressively value bet (including dry Aces against seat 6).

The hand:

7 Card Stud High ($8/$16), Ante $1.50, Bring-In $2 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.50 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ___calls ___calls
Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ___completes
Seat 3: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ___folds
Seat 6: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ___brings-in ___folds

4th Street - (5.75 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ___checks
Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ___checks
Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ___checks
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ___checks

5th Street - (2.88 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ___bets ___calls
Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ___raises ___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ___calls ___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ___raises

6th Street - (12.88 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ___checks ___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ___bets

River - (14.88 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx ___checks ___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ___bets

Total pot: (16.88 BB - $270)
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  #2  
Old 10-27-2007, 11:11 AM
Poker CPA Poker CPA is offline
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Default Re: Perverse hand

R 3th, fold 5th but don't feel strongly about it
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  #3  
Old 10-28-2007, 10:54 PM
Andy B Andy B is offline
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Default Re: Perverse hand

Third, I think I still raise. With three hearts gone and a Five gone, it's hard to know what seat 1 is on. You seem to think that since this guy called $2, in early position no less, he will probably call for $14 more. I would hold some hope that we could maybe fold him out. You're probably not going to fold out seat 4 unless the other Ace comes over the top. I think that calling and hoping to knock someone out later is a fine game-plan, but I probably still just raise.

On fourth, I like a bet. I assume that you're hoping to get a raise in to knock someone out on fifth. This is fine, too, but if you bet now, it'll be a bigger pot if you win. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I'm not crazy about the raise on fifth street. I doubt that one pair is currently winning. I also doubt that anyone is folding. It's somewhat surprising that the one guy called two cold and folded for one more bet when his call closed the action. Also, your hand is somewhat dead. I'd call and hope.

Definitely bet sixth and seventh. Nice hand.
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  #4  
Old 11-03-2007, 02:39 AM
Big Limpin Big Limpin is offline
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Default Re: Perverse hand

You wont find many more +EV things in stud than isolating a A-door (repped strongly) with (AA)K. Playing this pot anything but heads-up is just plain masochist. You'll hardly ever find a bigger edge to isolate with, i mean, wtf man? [/well-meaning bluntness]
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  #5  
Old 11-03-2007, 02:45 AM
Big Limpin Big Limpin is offline
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Default Re: Perverse hand

[ QUOTE ]
Seat 2 is a reasonable player I have played with a lot. She plays good hands relative to the structure, doesn't bluff her board much and usually thinks I have nothing, so she often calls me down light. That said, she probably doesn't think I'm insane, and is unwilling to get into confrontations multiway without a monster.


[/ QUOTE ] i [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] this player. it's so much cooler that she is a grrls [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
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  #6  
Old 11-03-2007, 02:58 AM
Big Limpin Big Limpin is offline
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Default Re: Perverse hand

4th st:

okay, so you let seat 1 pay his $8 on 3rd, NOW (repeat NOW, 4th) is the time to get him the [censored] out. even if you only stacked up even-money with the A-door, you should bet here. insofar as you crush both of them and have [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in your window, i simply cannot see how you will make up this lost $EV on later streets.

Your bet here reps either 4flush (r u aggro? remember this is consistent with the lol 3rd flat call) or KK (seat#2 thinks he's liver than he is)...both of which are obv beneficial thoughts to plant in seat#2's mind on early streets.
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  #7  
Old 11-03-2007, 03:09 AM
Big Limpin Big Limpin is offline
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Default Re: Perverse hand

5th:
the raise from seat#2 has turned into a very interesting hand. it could have been a very simple (+profitable) hand.

with all due respect mr. electrical we should never have put ourselves into this situation.

raising here reps a made flush, or >QQ. it will be nearly impossible to play 6th and 7th for profit.
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  #8  
Old 11-03-2007, 03:13 AM
Big Limpin Big Limpin is offline
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Default Re: Perverse hand

in recent months, i've been playing more stud that ever.

i will be most likely posting some hands of my own soon, where i surely will have made mistakes. my only request is that electrical and others will critique my hands in the same honest manner i have done here. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

"it's hard to learn when your feedback is exclusively people patting you on the back"
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  #9  
Old 11-03-2007, 04:23 AM
electrical electrical is offline
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Default Re: Perverse hand

Thanks for resurrecting this. I was beginning to think nobody thought this hand was that interesting.

[ QUOTE ]
You wont find many more +EV things in stud than isolating a A-door (repped strongly) with (AA)K. Playing this pot anything but heads-up is just plain masochist. You'll hardly ever find a bigger edge to isolate with, i mean, wtf man? [/well-meaning bluntness]

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, but I felt that putting in a raise on Third wouldn't get the pot heads up. If I were in better relative position (acting immediately after the Ace, or if there had been no limpers prior to the Ace), or if I thought I could get anybody who had already paid anything to fold, then I would have raised as a default play and obviously been willing to three-bet and call a cap. That would have been nice. It would also be nice to have been born taller and more handsome, but I'll work with what I've got.

As it was, on Third I had a caller between the Ace and me, and two others likely willing to play. It is unlikely she actually has a pair of Aces, and if not is never going to reraise into this crowd on Third. If I raise on the end of Third street, I just make a huge multi-way pot with one dead pair that my opponents are correct to chase.

On Fourth, once it became apparent it would check through (with only the B-I left to play after me), I decided to wait until the BB street to bet so I could offer my opponents poor odds to chase. If anybody had a board that coordinated in any way, I would certainly have bet, both for value and to charge draws. In this case, I felt the pot was big enough and my opponents loose enough that I would be inviting too much action with a small bet because nobody would think anybody had much yet, and peeling is what they do in that case. I didn't want to be in a huge multi-way pot with a bunch of tied-on villains, defending one pair.

On Fifth, if seat 1 has two pair, there are very few combinations of cards seat 2 can have that would be the best hand. I have a threatening board, so a raise would be consistent with a made flush and would force-out everybody but seat 1 (and maybe seat 2), who are both vested in the hand and may think I'm fanning. It worked out better than that, in that the Ace contributed some dead money and then quit. This was my fondest hope, since she's capable of folding one pair here and I'm not sure seat 1 is. It was also obvious I would be in position on the Queens for the rest of the hand unless I improved to a hand worth leading with anyway.

I was pretty sure I had the best hand on Six and the River, and since it was finally heads-up, I just bet. If Seat 1 thought I was bluffing with a pretend flush, I could expect a call on both streets with as little as one pair, and to get raised like never, since Queens-and-fives has two outs to beat me, and a flush would know the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] folded and I hold the nut K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

I agree that this is a hand I would prefer to get heads-up early on, but I was convinced I wouldn't be able to. The stud literature is full of advice on how to play hands heads-up, but when faced with a hand that looks like it's headed into a crowd, we are forced to invent strategies on the fly, and this is what I came up with.

The best observation you made (and the one that makes me wonder if I blew it) is this one:

[ QUOTE ]
okay, so you let seat 1 pay his $8 on 3rd, NOW (repeat NOW, 4th) is the time to get him the [censored] out. even if you only stacked up even-money with the A-door, you should bet here. insofar as you crush both of them and have in your window, i simply cannot see how you will make up this lost $EV on later streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given my image, I should probably have been willing to put a bet on Fourth on the slim chance that somebody would fold. My reservations are that I didn't figure to lose anybody, and I was probably a money dog 4-ways if anybody has better than one pair already. My hand isn't that strong with a dead ten, no good backdoor draw and at least one Ace out.

I posted this hand because it seemed weird while I was playing it, and I'm still trying to figure out if my line was reasonable or just plain bad. I appreciate the discussion.
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  #10  
Old 11-03-2007, 06:03 AM
Big Limpin Big Limpin is offline
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Default Re: Perverse hand

I've no doubt you have the toolkit to beat most any stud game. You are thinking about the right things. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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