AQ, very tough hand, what line?

Up-grey-de · #1 10-31-2007, 03:13 PM

I just opened up this table, so I have exactly 100BB. Villian covers me. No tells whatsoever.
NL 6-handed 1/2. Hero is dealt AQo.

UTG limps, Villian makes it 10, Hero calls in BB, so does UTG.

Flop: 7 heart, A diamond, 10 clubs.

Hero checks, UTG checks, Villian bets 20 (pot is 31.)
Hero calls, UTG folds.

Turn= 9 spade
Hero checks, Villian bets 50, Hero calls.

River= A clubs.
Hero checks, Villian bets All-in.
(Pot is 131, I have 70 left)

Question 1= Would anyone raise this flop?

Question 2= Could anyone fold this river, if so, why?

Question 3= Would you like a turn fold, esp since I have never played with Villian before?

illuminati · #2 10-31-2007, 03:16 PM

Mis-read action.

I think pre sucks and always ends up in situations like this. I think you can fold the turn.

CobraGoat · #3 10-31-2007, 04:09 PM

as played (def. fold or RR pre) you can really only c/c the flop. turn i either dump or b/f.

scatt_man · #4 10-31-2007, 04:36 PM

Re raise pre ... as played i think you gotta call the river

Up-grey-de · #5 10-31-2007, 05:29 PM

Chicago Twister, here are my thoughts on the flop (ignore preflop, I should have 3-bet).
If I check this flop, he is going to bet both his missed hands and his strong hands, and it is more probable that he missed/is weak.
If we lead flop, he is going to fold most hands that are worse than mine, and I have gained no value, but if we check he will bet both his worse and better hands.
So IMO it is EV+ to check flop since we will get more value from the hand than if we lead.

I like this discussion, plz keep on debating wether it is EV+ to c/c or lead flop.

Chicago Twister · #6 10-31-2007, 05:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If we lead flop, he is going to fold most hands that are worse than mine

[/ QUOTE ]

Highlighted is the key. If this is in fact true, then yes you are 100% correct. I guess the debate for me comes down to wheter or not this is true. In my experience it is not. Again it is completely player dependant, but I find that many players will react as I described. YMMV

nazahl · #7 10-31-2007, 05:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
(def. fold or RR pre)

[/ QUOTE ]

why are people saying this?

Chicago Twister · #8 10-31-2007, 05:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(def. fold or RR pre)

[/ QUOTE ]

why are people saying this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because by simply flatting pre you reduce yourself to basically playing fit-or-fold postflop. If we had position we would have an additional way to win: by judging the opponent's range and leveraging our position when he is weak. But since we are OOP and flatted, that option is gone. Now he is the one with positional advantage, and we will forever be at his mercy. If we flop nothing (which we will 67% of the time) we'll have to just fold to his CB. If we flop something, bet, and are raised, now we're in a very difficult spot because he is telling us he can beat TP. Since the pot is large we'll have a hard time folding, but every time we call we light another $100 bill on fire. Pushing is even worse because it is nothing more than a bluff.

Its much better to either take the initiative yourself by 3betting pre, or just avoiding the situation completely by folding. There is no shame in folding, either.

nazahl · #9 10-31-2007, 07:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(def. fold or RR pre)

[/ QUOTE ]

why are people saying this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because by simply flatting pre you reduce yourself to basically playing fit-or-fold postflop. If we had position we would have an additional way to win: by judging the opponent's range and leveraging our position when he is weak. But since we are OOP and flatted, that option is gone. Now he is the one with positional advantage, and we will forever be at his mercy. If we flop nothing (which we will 67% of the time) we'll have to just fold to his CB. If we flop something, bet, and are raised, now we're in a very difficult spot because he is telling us he can beat TP. Since the pot is large we'll have a hard time folding, but every time we call we light another $100 bill on fire. Pushing is even worse because it is nothing more than a bluff.

Its much better to either take the initiative yourself by 3betting pre, or just avoiding the situation completely by folding. There is no shame in folding, either.

[/ QUOTE ]

so what, it just seems way to contradictory to make any sense. you have a hand that is worthy of 3betting in the situation described, yet you'd rather fold it than just call. wtf? that makes no sense.

its okay to call preflop and then just c/f the flop if we whiff. flatting preflop gives you options to get away from tpgk if villain doesnt lay off on the turn/river rather than just committing ourselves pf to getting AI on the flop every time we catch a piece.

im not saying that i totally disagree w/ your post. im just saying that it doesnt make sense to have a hand that you're willing to 3bet with but want to fold rather than call.

Chicago Twister · #10 10-31-2007, 03:18 PM

Calling pre is pretty bad IMO. Fold or re-raise.

As played the question isn't really whether or not you should call the river. The question is whether or not you should continue past the flop or the turn. I'd either bet-fold the flop or check-raise the flop normally, sometimes check-call the flop if I'm planning on getting in on the turn (for value) with a check-raise. Best way to keep the pot small however is to bet-fold the flop.