5-handed in a FTP $5

onnel · #1 10-12-2007, 01:50 PM

Down to 5 handed. Villain has been aggressively pushing people out of pots.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t1200/t2400
(Ante: t300)
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: t59300
CO: t30624
Button: t156826
SB: t34046
BB: t148204

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero calls t2400 (pot was t5100), 3 folds, 3 folds, BB checks.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t7500, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t7500, BB raises to t24000, Hero calls t16500 (pot was t39000).

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t55500, 2 players)
BB is all-in t121504, Hero calls all-in t32600.
Uncalled bets: t88904 returned to BB.

River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t120700, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: t120700)

It was commented that limping with JTs in this situation was poor. Should I have been raising preflop ready to fold to a big stack push or reraise?

Fold to reraise on flop? Fold turn?

I realize that the post-flop play may have been suboptimal, but it's the pre-flop I'm particularly interested in.

All help appreciated.

ssnyc · #2 10-12-2007, 01:53 PM

don't mind the limp with your stack (raise to 2.5 better) but I check this flop almost always and never a full pot bet!!!!...you are probably ahead but can't call a check raise profitably...I would keep the pot small as best i could and see what develops

onnel · #3 10-12-2007, 01:56 PM

Right, the full pot bet just leads to too much inflation.

Assuming I check the flop and he then comes with a big bet on the turn, do I then fold to it?

Also, if I raise 2.5 pre-flop do I fold to a big reraise/push?

ssnyc · #4 10-12-2007, 01:58 PM

readless and depending on how big i would...especially after the K drops...no harm in giving up with a marginal hand with very little invested...

sapsuckah · #5 10-12-2007, 02:08 PM

Actually disagree with you on this one, ss.

I generally hate open-limping at later stages of a tourney. I'll only do so with a very specific table dynamic. I'd much prefer a 2.5x raise here (as you said).

If I'm OP, I really like this flop in a HU pot. If you're gonna enter the pot at all with JT, you have to be ready to be aggressive if you flop top pair. Plus, since you limped in and he just checked from the BB, you're slightly more likely to have flopped a flush or strong draw here. And with three hearts on the board, you absolutely don't want to give a free card here.

So I like the flop lead and I have no problem with it being a PSB since (given your read) I'd snap-call if he pushes over the top of me or push if he raises (as he did here). I think there's just way too big a chance that you're ahead here to lay this down.

As for money implications, you're way behind the CLs and you need to chip up if want any better than 3rd. Plus, you're not far enough ahead of the two shorties to assume you can make 3rd easily. So I wouldn't let the prospect of moving up a spot on the money list deter me from taking this hand all the way.

Matt

ssnyc · #6 10-12-2007, 02:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Actually disagree with you on this one, ss.

I generally hate open-limping at later stages of a tourney. I'll only do so with a very specific table dynamic. I'd much prefer a 2.5x raise here (as you said).

If I'm OP, I really like this flop in a HU pot. If you're gonna enter the pot at all with JT, you have to be ready to be aggressive if you flop top pair. Plus, since you limped in and he just checked from the BB, you're slightly more likely to have flopped a flush or strong draw here. And with three hearts on the board, you absolutely don't want to give a free card here.

So I like the flop lead and I have no problem with it being a PSB since (given your read) I'd snap-call if he pushes over the top of me or push if he raises (as he did here). I think there's just way too big a chance that you're ahead here to lay this down.

As for money implications, you're way behind the CLs and you need to chip up if want any better than 3rd. Plus, you're not far enough ahead of the two shorties to assume you can make 3rd easily. So I wouldn't let the prospect of moving up a spot on the money list deter me from taking this hand all the way.

Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

Matt point taken...think that if OP raised I would be more inclined to be tied to the pot...by limping we don't know if we are behind a junk flush, two pair, flush draw with overs...assume we limped with a monster are they going to try to CR us off AA/KK on that flop? See few scenarios that we are so far ahead that we want to play for BBs entire stack here with no real redraw possibilities...may be weak but hey...if we alays agree we aren't getting anywhere on these forums!!

also if we call the flop checkraise we aren't folding so we should just puh...correct? Our hands as good as it's going to get so why not just take the uncertainty out

sapsuckah · #7 10-12-2007, 02:30 PM

My feeling is that OP's read (that the villain has been pushing people out of pots) is more influential in my decision-making than the possibilities you listed.

In a HU pot, especially when I'm up against the BB who could have ATC, I'm never worried about him having a flush or two pair. I know it's possible, but it's just way too unlikely for me to play as if they're a strong possibility. Sets and pairs higher than JJ are also very unlikely here as any pf pair would likely have raised given his aggressiveness and stack. Two overcards are also unlikely here, as BB would probably be raising over your limp with KQ, AQ+.

I think it's more likely that he either paired the board (lower than J, hopefully) or has a flush draw. Either way, I'm playing this aggressively and hoping for action.

So I'm obviously happy with hitting top pair and there's no way I'm giving a free turn card.

Matt

ssnyc · #8 10-12-2007, 02:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My feeling is that OP's read (that the villain has been pushing people out of pots) is more influential in my decision-making than the possibilities you listed.

In a HU pot, especially when I'm up against the BB who could have ATC, I'm never worried about him having a flush or two pair. I know it's possible, but it's just way too unlikely for me to play as if they're a strong possibility. Sets and pairs higher than JJ are also very unlikely here as any pf pair would likely have raised given his aggressiveness and stack. Two overcards are also unlikely here, as BB would probably be raising over your limp with KQ, AQ+.

I think it's more likely that he either paired the board (lower than J, hopefully) or has a flush draw. Either way, I'm playing this aggressively and hoping for action.

So I'm obviously happy with hitting top pair and there's no way I'm giving a free turn card.

Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

Matt...point taken with a firm read...course all that point to reshoving all in on flop...calling makes no sense as we are unlikely to improve...call of the CR is a little odd but I guess irrelevant cause we are both commited at that point...if another heart comes out I guess we could maybe fold

sapsuckah · #9 10-12-2007, 02:43 PM

Yeah, I guess I didn't finish my thought that we'd be pushing over the BB's c/r based on all the stuff I was yabbering on about.

Dunkman · #10 10-12-2007, 03:40 PM

I don't care for the PF limp, what was your plan? Limp and call regardless of position, only if in position, limp rr? or did you just not think about it.

On to the hand, I think the PSB on the flop is a bit much as people have said. It basically screams I have some type of pair but those hearts scare the crap out of me. Anyway, I can see calling the flop raise to get it in on a non heart turn, I could also see just shoving over his raise on the flop. I'm thinking if he has Ah then his kicker probably isn't higher than a J, so I think he probably has 12 outs rather than 15. Still, counting the times he has a better T, or a set, or a made flush, and having pretty much at least 12 outs regardless, this is a pretty close spot. Given your read I'd jam on the flop, but I could see just letting this go on the flop against a different villain.