Play a Hand With the Masters #3 Flop

[Lloyd]

Welcome to our second "Hand With the Masters". This was originally submitted by Jason Strasser (Strassa). Much thanks to him for taking the time to not only submit the hand but provide a lot of his thought process, more of which will hopefully come at the end when we bring our Masters together.

Here's how this is going to work (same as last time):

1. Our expert panel includes Justin Bonomo (Zee Justin) and Shane Schleger (Shaniac). They were sent the hand decision point by decision point so they only had access to the information that they would have had if they were playing the hand themselves. Obviously, this was an actual hand and when a panelist's line deviated from how the hand was played they still played the hand out as it actually went down. So if they said they would fold and in the actual hand it was raised, they played the next decision point as if they had raised.

2. I'm going to post the hand in multiple threads step by step over the next couple of days. This will make it as real as possible. I plan on adding a decision point approximately every 24 hours. Please be patient and understand that we're trying to 1) allow everyone a chance to view the decision point post prior to being influenced by a subsquent post; and 2) allow enough time for lots of discussion.

3. Once everyone has had a chance to comment on all aspects of the hand, I'll post how our experts played it out along with the thought process they have presented. We'll then give them an opportunity to post and discuss why they liked one approach versus another.

4. We'll bring the forum back to continue the discussion. Essentially, this will be the hand we'll talk about over the next week.

So without further adieu:

Setup
$650 PokerStars Qualifier for the PokerStars Carribean Adventure (PCA)
9-Handed
Blinds 10/20
Hero is Strassa
No reads on villain

Stacks
Hero (CO) t2540
BB t3245

Pre-Flop
All fold to hero who has 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and raises to t80. Button and SB fold. BB calls t60.

Flop
Pot: t170

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB checks. Action is on the hero.

Pre-Flop and Flop Questions

1) A lot of people talk about playing tight early and don't try to steal blinds when they are this small. What do you think about blind stealing at this level? Would you do it and if so under what conditions?

2) What's your decision on the flop? Do you check or bet (and if so, how much)?

3) What's your plan on the turn (if any) based on your decision on the flop, the villain's action, and what card comes?

4) Any other thoughts at this point?

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
1) A lot of people talk about playing tight early and don't try to steal blinds when they are this small. What do you think about blind stealing at this level? Would you do it and if so under what conditions?

2) What's your decision on the flop? Do you check or bet (and if so, how much)?

3) What's your plan on the turn (if any) based on your decision on the flop, the villain's action, and what card comes?

4) Any other thoughts at this point?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) usually i don't steal blinds at this blind level. i think it's something that's been ingrained in my skull from so much sng-play, but the risk/reward ratio is all screwy.

my thoughts are that i want to preserve my image as a tight player who doesnt steal blinds, so that when the blinds do get to a notable size, i can steal with (relative) aplomb. this is probably transparent to decent players -- however, i don't often play with those sorts of players.

if i did steal blinds at this level, i would hope to show down a couple hands in dedication to a certain young lady named shania.

2) i usually bet this flop. i assume we're readless at this point because it's so early. if i had a read on the guy that told me betting was sure to lose him, for whatever reason, i'd check. but like 90% of the time, readless, i'm betting here.

my reasoning is that i bet here with AK also. and if i am always checking it through after i nail the flop, and always betting when i whiff, people will catch on to that. so i just like to bet either way, because, you know, betting is fun.

couple that with the fact that this is a potentially draw-heavy board, it makes sense to charge those draws, and build a pot with a big hand, blabbity blah blah.

i'd bet my pretty standard "somewhere-between-1/2-pot-and-2/3-pot" bet, something like 100.

3) i dunno, i don't like to go crazy with planning out future streets, but if a complete rag came and he bet out, i'd be inclined to call down... AND if a card come that looked to complete a draw came and he bet out, i'd be inclined to call smallish bets down. if it checks to me on the turn i'm betting no matter what comes, again, 1/2-2/3 pot.

4) fold preflop donk. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[MLG]

1. Raising here isnt really to steal the blinds per se. You are raising to maybe get folds, but you would also like to get a call or two and play some poker with a nice well disguised hand. I would also sometimes open limp there when the stacks are deep, but that is completely dependent on personal playing style.

2. I bet this flop, because I bet almost all the time when I raised preflop in an LP v BB battle. Also you have a very nice very disguised and very vulnerable hand. Bottom two on a draw heavy board is extremely dangerous because it can easily become a 2nd best hand, but its also too good to fold in many situations (especially when there are two draws since its harder to determine when the villain gets there). I bet roughly 120-140.

3. I'm planning on betting many turn cards if I get called on the flop. Any blanks and most cards that only complete one draw. For example I will probably bet a black jack, but check the 6 of hearts since its so so brutal. I'm also obviously ready to give up on the hand if the 9 pairs. Another interesting question is what I will do if I'm cred here. Given the board, and the stack depth Im not pushing. Pushing will quite likely let the blind get off a medium over pair like JJ, or top pair type hand like K9s. Also, against a lot of big draws I'm only roughly even money, but those draws will put money in on the turn when they miss and then I'm a bigger favorite. Also calling will let one pair hands hang themselves further on the turn. An additional benefit is not going broke when a possible draw gets there.

[NoahSD]

I like the raise preflop. I think the reason blind-stealing is generally frowned upon on in the early levels on this forum is because most people are playing lower stakes, where this doesn't work. Also, a hand like 75s is a good hand to play in position with a decent stack, especially after a deceptive raise. That said, if hero does this with every suited one-gapper that comes along, he's spewing.

On the flop, I bet because continuation bets are expected and this is a flop where there are a lot of draws that I don't want to let see a turn and villain may attempt to resteal.

[Exitonly]

[ QUOTE ]
Pre-Flop and Flop Questions

1) A lot of people talk about playing tight early and don't try to steal blinds when they are this small. What do you think about blind stealing at this level? Would you do it and if so under what conditions?

2) What's your decision on the flop? Do you check or bet (and if so, how much)?

3) What's your plan on the turn (if any) based on your decision on the flop, the villain's action, and what card comes?

4) Any other thoughts at this point?

[/ QUOTE ]

1.I don't think i'd try and steal here, but i see plenty of reasons to. You can see for cheap how they defend their blinds, and you'll likely pick up the pot PF or on the flop, and extra chips are always nice. I can't really think of reasons not to steal early, i guess if you play flops bad and you'll spew chips there, but otherwise it should be good.

2. i'm betting like 125 because thats probably what i'd bet if i missed, and maybe this guy will try and get 'cute' because this doesn't really look like a flop we'd hit very hard.

3. If he calls my flop bet and a heart comes on the turn, i'd probably check behind and call his bet on the river (non-heart river). If he leads out the turn, i probably call him down.

4. Not especially.

[KneeCo]

Awesome to see another one of these. Thanks Lloyd & co.

For what it's worth, this is the Saturday tournament correct, so about 200 runners, with the top 10 or so getting the 12K package and the rest getting nothing?

Now, as for blind stealing early, I think it's generally not the a good approach, except when the table is particularly tight (and of course the players in the blinds abide by that trend). When that is the case, I think it's good to throw in some creative open-raises from LP both to take advantage of the tight play by collecting blinds, and to vary predictability (these especially tight tables are also the ones where people tend to be paying the most attention to others). A suited-one gapper isn't ideal holdings, but can do the trick sometimes.

So HERO throws in his 4 BBs, and the BB called.
One of the advantages of stealing early of late is of course that the steal is pretty disguised, and from BB's perspective HERO probably has a hand. Pair that with the lack of read on the villain and I'd say his range is standard for entering a pot OOP getting just under 2:1 (a very wide range, including a slew of small pockets, broadway cards and suited connectors).

As for Hero's action, IMO check is out of the question, bottom two (with flush/straight draws on board no less) is *not* a slow playing hand.

Rather, Hero has to bet here, I would say 150 chips seems about right to cut off odds and still look enough like a pure continuation bet with the hands that villain probably assumes Hero is holding (~KJ+ given the pf raise).

In this spot, if I were the Hero I would bet 150 and fully expect to pick up the pot right there. If the villain calls, I hope not to see a trouble card on the turn, especially a 9 or non-7 heart. If one of those cards comes, and Hero gets a pot sized bet CR'd on the turn, it might be time to muck the hand.

If rather than calling or folding, villain actually check raises the flop though, I don't think Hero should head for the muck. Generally, getting CR'd with bottom two on this flop is not a good thing, but because of the villain's perspective on the Hero's holding, I think he might do it with hands that the Hero is actually ahead of (mainly semi-bluff hands, or maybe even A9/K9), so if Hero is CR'd here, I think a re-raise might be in order, probably AI depending on the size of the betting.

[ononimo]

[ QUOTE ]
You are raising to maybe get folds, but you would also like to get a call or two and play some poker with a nice well disguised hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

this seems to be the most compelling reason to raise with this particular hand -- a relatively cheap opportunity to make a strong yet well-disguised hand and get paid off ... seems like something out of the Negreanu or Hansen playbook.

stealing just for the sake of stealing doesn't seem to make much sense to me at this blind level.

[Roman]

1) A lot of people talk about playing tight early and don't try to steal blinds when they are this small. What do you think about blind stealing at this level? Would you do it and if so under what conditions?

Stealing early is fine, most people dont cause they suck deepstacked. I do it against opponents I can outplay postflop, but rarely.


2) What's your decision on the flop? Do you check or bet (and if so, how much)?

This is an easy bet, ~120-140

3) What's your plan on the turn (if any) based on your decision on the flop, the villain's action, and what card comes?

On the turn I bet a blank, check behind dangerous cards. To a raise I would prolly puke and call.

4) Any other thoughts at this point?

looks standard zzzzzz

[KneeCo]

[ QUOTE ]

4) Any other thoughts at this point?

looks standard zzzzzz

[/ QUOTE ]

I think some people won't be happy with these threads until we have a hand that breaks out into a fistfight or something. Honestly, what isn't a 'standard' flop decision in your books? Feel free to post one, I'd be interested to see it.

[CardSharpCook]

I love SH tourneys because playing all types of crap early can win you all kinds of action later. You develop table relationships with every player at the table. You get a really feel for the ebb and flow of the table. However, in a 9/10 handed table, I sit back and fold this stuff early.

But we are in the hand. Sweet flop, but a little draw heavy. Stacks are huge so there is no point in either slow-playing or protecting the hand. Bet out a reasonable amount 2/3 pot. I am not inducing a call or a bluff. All I am doing is playing the hand at this point.

Raise plan? I'll call the raise and then raise a non- [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] turn. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] turns I'll start calling down.

Turn plan? Bet 1/2-2/3 pot.