Bet Folding

[One Outer]

Of course I fold to a raise in this situation. The passive players in the game this example comes from are so passive they wouldn't even raise a rivered two pair in this spot, so if he is raising, I'm screwed.

The c/r is completely read dependent. In this hand, against this opponent, I'm folding.

[ QUOTE ]
What if villain calls the turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? You mean if the flush card comes out on the turn and he then calls my bet? If that is what you mean, then I bet the river again anyway, even if it brings the fourth flush card (Clarkmeister Theorem). If no more of that suit comes out he'll still pay me, and if he does raise me, well I suppose once again that's situational. Is the river a complete blank? I'm more inclined to call if it is, but if the card is in his two pair wheelhouse I'm more inclined to fold. It's hard to say until the situation happens.

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Do you bet fold the river against a raise?

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What? I don't get it. Perhaps you mean, if he raised the turn and I call, do I donk into him again and then fold if he raises?

[Dhani]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you bet fold the river against a raise?

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What? I don't get it. Perhaps you mean, if he raised the turn and I call, do I donk into him again and then fold if he raises?

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The turn is a flush card. You bet the turn and he calls. The river blanks and..
a)you lead again and he raises.

[One Outer]

My default play would then be call. It's just too weird a line for his story to make sense, as Kit might say.

[chillrob]

[ QUOTE ]
OP,

i guess the follow up is: what are bad spots to b/f?

1) when HU. in multiway pots, bluffing frequency goes way down, indeed for most opponents a big street bluff percentage is around 0% multiway. when HU this percentage increases dramatically.

2) when HU and the turn or river blanks. self-explanatory

3) when the turn puts up a flush draw and you're HU or 3 way. self-explanatory

4) when HU, and the turn or river is a scare card and its obvious that card doesnt help you

these are off the top of my head. in general, although counterintuitive, people also take more shots when the pot is smaller, knowing they have more fold equity. so keep that in mind as well.


all of this also depends on your opponents. some never bluff. some value raise the river with things you beat. it varies, which is why reads are crucial.



[/ QUOTE ]

Kit, you seem to imply here that bet/fold is usually not a great line when headsup. But in most of the games you (and I) play, aren't most hands headsup on the river? It seems that most of the times bet/fold is talked about on the boards here, it is referring to river betting. How often does a good opportunity to bet/fold the river actually come up?

[KitCloudkicker]

[ QUOTE ]


Kit, you seem to imply here that bet/fold is usually not a great line when headsup. But in most of the games you (and I) play, aren't most hands headsup on the river? It seems that most of the times bet/fold is talked about on the boards here, it is referring to river betting. How often does a good opportunity to bet/fold the river actually come up?

[/ QUOTE ]

suppose I raise PF and bet the flop and turn on a K345 board. if a thinking player raises me HU in position after a 7 rivers (board is K3457), for example, I would never fold anything I bet for value on the river in the first place. why? its obvious I dont have a 6. there is no one to worry about behind him.

[KitCloudkicker]

Rob, a place i will b/f HU on the river:

I bet every street on with AK on an ace high board and a relatively passive player raises me when the 3 card flush hits.

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
op,

also, when i take a b/f line, both the "story" i tell and the "story" the villain tells has to make sense.

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This doesn't have to be the case with extreme loose passives. Over the last couple weeks I've made a ton of bet/folds where it should be obvious the river didn't help either of us but they're not good enough to know that.

[TheCount212]

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It's late & the sleeping pills are kicking in, so I won't try to type out a full answer tonight. But the short version is, when I bet/fold it's very likely that either I had absolutely nothing & was hoping to steal the pot with a bet, or that I have a read on my opponent as being extremely passive and/or straightforward & can trust that his raise means monster.

While I do agree that it's an important part of any good player's LHE arsenal, that doesn't mean that I like doing it. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] This of course assumes a HU pot.

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Agreed. I hate b/f'ing. The situations where it comes up are very limited... to the two mentioned by Harv here. In LHE I am a pathological showdown monkey, so I will usually bet when I think I'm ahead, and check when I think I'm behind. If convinced that I'm beat I fold.. but usually if I've made it to the river I have a showdown-worthy hand.

[DeuceKicker]

[ QUOTE ]
Here are my initial thoughts, probably with a good amount of errors:

Bet/fold line is great against certain opponents with which you have a good read, ideally against a passive non-tricky opponent.

The line garners a lot more value than the c/c line on certain boards/villains, because you will gain value from calls of hands you beat when not raised, where as c/c against certain opponents/boards you will only be calling when a better hand is betting, therefore always making a losing call (this is unless your opponent will bluff with his worse hands, then c/c gains more value). Remember all the hands where you checked OOP and it was checked through and your HIG, missing a value bet.

Examples such as when the flush card hits and your opponent is one to not bluff you without the goods. Its heads up and you bet into your villain, the flush card looks as scary to you as him, against a passive villain and small pot, you can probably bet/fold this.

Different boards and how many other players are in the hand are big variables, the more passive the opponent and more villains (bluffing into a field is less profitable than heads up), the more inclined you should be bet/folding. Trickier opponents who will raise with combo draws and fire a barrel UI on the river etc. will need to be bet/called or c/c to obtain the most value.

Also be aware of your own relative hand strength compared to your range of villain's hand and the board. Bet/folding two pair is sometimes correct, and sometimes incorrect. Its a lot easier to bet/fold a pair than stronger hands such top two or a set.

During the session also keep in mind some villains may be seeing you bet/fold and will then take shots. So make sure to change gears and look some people up if they are paying attention.

It kinda boils down to how your villains will bet their hands, if they are frequently raising worse hands, bet/call on certain boards, if they are frequently only raising better hands on the same boards bet/fold, if they are rarely calling worse hands, but will bet when checked to, c/c.

[/ QUOTE ]Some good points in here.

[Frond]

A few hands from last nights session got me thinking about employing this line. This happened right after I bet and called the raise instead of folding which I should have. One especially was a really stupid call I made from an older guy who never raised without a big hand, pre or post flop. Scarmiglio can attest to that bonehead play I made but it got the wheels turning instantly cause I knew the mistake I made and was a good spot to BF. Made sense to me also that someone eluded to here somewhere, that with some decent hands that we might be planning to call a bet it at times does make sense to BF. Mixing it up is good though as we are going to have to look a few up so we are not seen as always folding for one on the river.

Some really good replies in here that I am going to think about some more.

Ni Hans all [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]