when?

[milesdyson]

when is a river bet neither a value bet or a bluff?

just a random question. i think to answer this you have to give some kind of player description.

i had one happen today i guess. if you're out of position when this comes up, should you bet or check? is one inherently higher variance?

[vmacosta]

When the board is such that you will clearly chop if your opponent calls (4444A or AKQJTr)?

If that's not the answer I don't really understand the question and feel like I'm about to look dumb.

[Oink]

What about a blocking bet?

Say you have A high OOP by the river on a ragged board in a small pot (say the turn got checked through).

Against a villain you think will bluff once in a while but not enough to c/c you could bet out to prevent that bluff even tho there isnt any value in the bet.

Am I making sense?

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
When the board is such that you will clearly chop if your opponent calls (4444A or AKQJTr)?

If that's not the answer I don't really understand the question and feel like I'm about to look dumb.

[/ QUOTE ]
sorry i didn't mean that situation, even though that is precisely the actual answer. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

i mean one where you have a hand that can not beat calling hands but is not worth bluffing. the answer to that is pretty self explanatory (and depends on the opponent), so i guess i was mainly asking for examples. this situation can possible come up more often by misplaying the flop or turn, which is what i think probably happened to me tonight.

[vmacosta]

Then you mean A-hi on double-paired boards?

I generally hate those bets cuz I like to showdown a lot and I really hate to fold when raised.

Here's a hypothetical where it might be interesting:

Somebody opens in CO, you 3-bet AQ otb, and the SB caps. Miraculously the BB and CO fold and you find yourselves HU. Flop is JTTr. He bets, you raise, he 3-bets, you call. Turn is 9. He bets, you call. River is J, he bets, you raise.

I still don't like it and not crazy about the flop.

[vmacosta]

[ QUOTE ]
Then you mean A-hi on double-paired boards?

I generally hate those bets cuz I like to showdown a lot and I really hate to fold when raised.

Here's a hypothetical where it might be interesting:

Somebody opens in CO, you 3-bet AQ otb, and the SB caps. Miraculously the BB and CO fold and you find yourselves HU. Flop is JTTr. He bets, you raise, he 3-bets, you call. Turn is 9. He bets, you call. River is J, he bets, you raise.

I still don't like it and not crazy about the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

nm that example sucks. lemme get out of your thread now while i still have some dignity.

[milesdyson]

here's the hand that made me think about it. i thought the turn was the perfect card for a defensive check/calldown against this guy because he was the type to peel loose on the flop and bet light on the turn (although he would check behind the river with unpaired hands). so if he had 65s he would likely bet the turn and bet most rivers when checked to. if he had KQo he would likely play the flop the same way but raise later in the hand (which means my defensive check loses less unless i fold which i hate doing). he was actually an okay player, just too loose preflop. so if he had, say, 22, i don't think he's going to call the river once that ace falls.

so that's why i started thinking about it. i think it's really unlikely that he calls me with an unpaired hand on this river. i think it's really unlikely that he doesn't have an unpaired hand on this river based on his turn check behind and the fact that he plays fairly floaty on the flop and would likely bet the turn with any pair and even some other hands.

so i don't think i ever get called on the river by this player when he has a worse hand, but i bet anyway. maybe all this means i should have check folded, because i don't expect him to have and bet Ax here vs. me. dunno, just a thought i had tonight.

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5.6SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3.8BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3.8BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, Button folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: 3.8BB

[secretprankster]

miles,

Oink kind've has it imo. There are a few situations where you will bet with a hand that is right on the cusp of everything better calls, everything worse folds, just because you do not feel you can call a bet when you check to your opponent. I'm not sure if a bet has a positive expectation in most of these scenarios, but its certainly worth entertaining the idea.

I'm having trouble coming up with an example though, lol. But off the top of my head, I'd say this probably happens most often with a hand like queen-high OOP on the river.

[yourface]

miles sklansky talks about this kind of situation in FTOP

vs some villain types it is better to bet than make a crying call on the river if they will call with more hands you beat than bet them themselves.

you still lose money on the bet so it is not for value, but you lose less than if you had check/called.

this situation doesn't usually come up in the aggressive games we play because most villains will bluff enough of the time to make c/c better.

[sweetjazz]

Miles, in your J8 hand, I don't really understand the turn check. Sure, you are usually ahead, but you should often be happy to take down the pot with "the best hand" at this point, and you might get value from a hand like A7. If you don't think he has A high and you don't think he has a pair, then you might as well check/call the river. Maybe you'll convince him you are really weak and he'll make a stab at the pot.

The answer to your original question is that you should often bet when you don't expect your opponent to fold any better hands and you expect to lose more than half the time. This occurs when you are OOP whenever the pot is big enough and your hand is good often enough that, if you check the river, it will be more profitable to call than to fold, but the villain will check behind most of the hands you beat.

For example, there are 8 BB in the pot on the river. The villain in the hand will not call a bet with a busted draw and will not bluff a busted draw. His range of hands is such that 70% of his made hands beat your hand and 30% lose to your hand. If you check to him, he will value bet his top 80% of his made hands. Note that you are still good 1-in-8 times when he does bet, so check/calling is better than check/folding. However, if you bet out on the river, he will call with all made hands and raise only the top 10%. (Obviously, you fold if raised, but even if you do call the raise, bet/calling is still better than check/calling or check/folding!)

This type of situation comes up fairly often. It becomes dicier if you feel your opponent might bluff (or mistakenly value raise worse hands) often enough that you have to call the river (or if you should fold the river but are likely to call for psychological reasons).