Question on raising/"one chip rule"

[thebeebster]

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On HSP, $300/600 blinds, a player throws out 2 $500 chips. Call?

I think this is a raise, for no other reason than the fact that everyone seems to think this is a call.

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a raise has to be to 1200 on hsp. two purples is a clear call.

[psandman]

Here is the problem.

If you keep calling this the single chip or one chip rule, those people will not be iorrational in arguing that TWO CHIPS IS NOT ONE CHIP OR A SINGLE CHIP.

Perhaps its time the single oversized chip rule got a new name, because I tend to agree with those irrational people if the rule is that a single oversized chip is a call, they are correct. the rule should be written something along the lines of.

"When a chip or chips are placed into the pot without a verbal declaration and the chip or chips are of denominations which could consist of a call (with change) or a raise, then it will be ruled to be a call."

sure someone could come up with better language, but the point is that if the rule refers to a single oversized chip the rule fails to address the issue of two chips.

[AngusThermopyle]

"Ambiguous Bet Rule" ?

[psandman]

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"Ambiguous Bet Rule" ?

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That works as a title.

[GreedIsGood]

And how about:

"If a bet is placed consisting of one or more chips of a single denomination, and if this is the minimum number of this denomination of chips required to call the current bet, and no verbal declaration or gesture has been made to indicate a raise, than the bet shall constitute a call."

[eastcoaster]

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And how about:

"If a bet is placed consisting of one or more chips of a single denomination, and if this is the minimum number of this denomination of chips required to call the current bet, and no verbal declaration or gesture has been made to indicate a raise, than the bet shall constitute a call."

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One could argue that tossing in a higher value of chips would precisely constitue a gesture indicating the bettor wanted to raise.

I think there should be a rule mandating a verbal declaration of all raises. The bettor must say, "raise." How hard is that?

[PokerDealerSTL]

According to every set of rules I have ever seen, this is a clear "call".

The "one chip rule" should definitely be renamed to the "unclear bet rule" like someone else said on here. The reason is that a dealer or the table is completely unclear on what the person acting is intending to do. The rule should be rewritten something along these lines...

If there is a bet earlier in the round, and a player throws in enough chips to where the final chip thrown in makes the range of the total (example bet is 600, player throws in two 500 chips therefore making the "range" of the two chips thrown out 501-1000)amount of the call and the player does not announce raise, it is a call.

To raise without saying raise in this instance, you must throw out an extra chip to where the range is enough to be able to make a raise, and the raise is either the minimum raise allowed (if there is a 1000 chip bet and you throw three 500 chips out, you would have to make the minimum raise to 2000), or the full amount of the chips thrown out.

I know it sounds confusing but I think you get the general idea of what I mean.

[Photoc]

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1/2 NL game:
First player raises to $6
Second player throws out two red ($5) chips without saying anything.
Is this a call or a raise to $10?

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I dont see how this is a call. 1/2 blinds, first raise is 4 more to 6 total. Player throws out 10 which is 4 more (the minimum raise allowable). Dealer should announce "raise to 10" and if the player says "no, it's just a call" before any action takes place, then it's a call. Otherwise, the bet is 100% correct for the minimum raise. It's not 1 chip and the 1 chip rule has virtually nothing to do with 2 chips being thrown in at the same time.

[NickMPK]

Wow...maybe I should have done a poll.

According to Robert's Rules, this appears to be raise to $10. The only relevant rule I think is:

"If you put a single chip in the pot that is larger than the bet, but do not announce a raise, you are assumed to have only called.

But I think I've seen this happen in 1/2 games several times, and it is always assumed to be a call without anyone even noticing that it could be a raise.

Glad I'm not the only one who finds this confusing.

[TMTTR]

This may not be as intuitive, but the "one chip" rule applies. As the rule is written, it says one "oversized chip" is a call and not a raise. In the example, the first $5 chip is insufficient to call the current bet of $6. Thus, the player must put in an additional chip. An additional $1 chip would make everything perfect. However, if the player puts in an additional oversized chip here, it is still just a call. Thus, the only relevant chip is the one that brings the player up to (or beyond) a call.

That may be a stretch... but that's why I play a lawyer in real life.