Best line with the mortal nuts... - Page 2

TxRedMan · #11 05-08-2007, 11:49 PM

tbh, I think his c/r is the only bet he's going to make when he's trying to shove you off a hand. i.e., when you re-raise, he's not going to fire again, so for those times it doesnt matter what you do. if you just called he's likely to shut down completely and when you raise he's insta mucking. but, when he has 77 here, sometimes you'll get his stack, but imho, only when you full pot 3 bet the flop. reason being b/c AKxx plays that way a lot of the time and as most of us know by now, when you flop an underfull in this spot the majority of the time you're going to be getting your money in as a slight favorite against a guy with big trips.

in sum, pot it back, hope he has 77, or is a crazy [censored] who'll 5 bet bluff you.

iggymcfly · #12 05-09-2007, 12:13 AM

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that repotting is the right move. You're going to be up against 77 often enough that getting paid off for full stacks against that hand has to be your primary concern and the stacks are deep enough that you need another raise to get all-in. Of all the raises you can make, I think the full pot reraise on the flop looks least suspicious and the most like AK. If you're going to bet less, just bet a little bit less so that to the untrained eye, it looks like you were repotting.

TheRempel · #13 05-09-2007, 12:45 AM

Against an average decent PLO player I think the full pot raise is the right move. I have played a lot of hands against this particular player though and he loooves running those kinds of bluffs.

My problem with raising the full pot in this spot is that he HAS to have 77 to continue with the hand. He is likely going to felt 77 regardless of what I do *EXCEPT* if I smoothcall the flop so I feel that making what seems like a bluffraise stands me the best chance of making moneez when he is tilty or just feeling plain aggro. I have no problems putting stacks in really light so basically my minraise can only be quads, something like AQQx or AJJx that is likely to be ahead but has few outs when behind, or air. If he feels that I'll fold everything but AA and maybe AKK then he can push the flop with a positive expectation.

As a side note, I actually planned to raise to like $300 but was on my 20th hour of a long session and came close to timing out. Oops.

As for results:

Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $2/$4
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $452.50
UTG+1: $437.20
MP1: $400
TheRempel: $919.15
MP3: $596.85
CO: $443.10
Button: $507.75
SB: $196
BB: $839.35

Pre-flop: (9 players) TheRempel is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
3 folds, TheRempel raises to $14, 4 folds, BB calls.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($30, 2 players)
BB checks, TheRempel bets $28.5, BB raises to $114, TheRempel raises to $228, BB calls.

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($486, 2 players)
BB bets $483, TheRempel raises all-in $677.15, BB calls all-in $114.35.
Uncalled bets: $79.8 returned to TheRempel.

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($1680.7, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $1680.7)

Results:
Final pot: $1680.7
BB shows 6h 8c 7d 7s 
TheRempel shows As Ts Ad 5c

cmyr · #14 05-09-2007, 10:43 AM

So I didn't actually notice that it was a minraise on the flop when the hand happened; the argument I thought i was having was with the idea that 3betting quads at all was questionable, and I think very clearly that outside of certain exceptional situations, just calling the flop is bad.

Against a decent thinking player, which I think we agree villian is, the only hand that's paying you off here is 77. 77 is much more likely to put the money in on the flop then at any other point in the hand, as Tx noted, so 3-betting is clearly the right play.

This sort of ties in neatly with the discussion in the slowplay/semibluffing thread, specifically dealing with real-world application of randomization. If one were to take the Troll position, it would be suggested that every once in a while you should just call the flop with quads. I think this is a good equivelant of the LHE AA on the button scenario; the possible gains in EV by occasionally checking this hand is way way way outweighed by the immediate loss in EV you get by giving 77 the chance to see a scary turn card.

If he has air, you aren't getting any more money no matter what. If he has 77, you're getting all his money 100% of the time if you 3bet (generally) and you're often not getting any if you just call.

For the sake of conversation, here is a hand against a particular sort of really dumb villian who is willing to go too far with weak hands, in which case letting off the gas could be a good idea; but you should already have a note on this guy, and be able to act accordingly.

Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $3/$6
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
SB: $725.50
Hero: $900.85

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB calls, Hero raises to $18, SB calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($36, 2 players)
SB bets $35, Hero raises to $102, SB calls.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($240, 2 players)
SB bets $66, Hero raises to $342, SB calls.

River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($924, 2 players)
SB raises all-in $263.5, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: $1451
SB shows 6h Kh 5d Td 
Hero shows Ks Kc 6c 4d

RoundTower · #15 05-10-2007, 07:25 PM

I think everyone else is right, I was wrong and I should 3 bet here much more.