Best line with the mortal nuts...

[TheRempel]

Cymr saw this hand go down and obstinately insists that the only line that should be taken is to full pot 3bet the flop. I have some history with this player and personally think the minraise (though i [censored] hate minraises) generates a lot more cash since he will occasionally 4bet bluffraise this flop or call the raise with something like KK and clubs.

Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $2/$4
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $452.50
UTG+1: $437.20
MP1: $400
TheRempel: $919.15
MP3: $596.85
CO: $443.10
Button: $507.75
SB: $196
BB: $839.35

Pre-flop: (9 players) TheRempel is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">TheRempel raises to $14</font>, 4 folds, BB calls.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($30, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">TheRempel bets $28.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises to $114</font>, <font color="#cc0000">TheRempel raises to $228</font>

Thoughts?

[Silent A]

First, this is not the mortal nuts ...

Omaha Hi Simulation
820 trials (Exhaustive)
board: AcAh7c
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
astsad5c 99.76% 818 0
KcQcKhQh 0.24% 2 0

The answer is completely player dependent, and by that I mean whet raises behind you with on that flop and whether he is more likely to read your mini-raise as strength or weakness (especially since you probably don't mini-raise very often). The nice thing about the mini-raise here is that if he makes a pot sized 4-bet then he'll be virtually all-in (about $50 left).

The big question is will you scare off 77xx with this mini-raise since it should be a suspicous play. If it can then you're probably better off representing Axxx and push for all it's worth. If it can't then, sure, milk any call-station/bluff tendencies he has.

[liquid]

[ QUOTE ]
First, this is not the mortal nuts ...

Omaha Hi Simulation
820 trials (Exhaustive)
board: AcAh7c
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
astsad5c 99.76% 818 0
KcQcKhQh 0.24% 2 0

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't discount the monster wrap potential.

Omaha Hi Simulation
820 trials (Exhaustive)
board: Ac7cAh
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
AsTsAd5c 99.63% 817 0
9c8cKhQh 0.37% 3 0

[Silent A]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't discount the monster wrap potential.

Omaha Hi Simulation
820 trials (Exhaustive)
board: Ac7cAh
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
AsTsAd5c 99.63% 817 0
9c8cKhQh 0.37% 3 0

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice one! I am humbled.

Such a wonderful example of how much playing co-ordinated hands improves your results ...

Omaha Hi Simulation
820 trials (Exhaustive)
board: AcAh7c
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
astsad5h 99.51% 816 0
8c9ckhqh 0.49% 4 0

[morphball]

How does he think you will play a bluff here when you don't have Ace?

[Troll_Inc]

To me, the minimum raise screams, "I have the mortal nuts". So vs a good opponent, in theory I agree with cmyr, and even you have advised quite often to bet out with quads/nuts because no one does it.

But apparently the minimum raise screams weakness to aggro players? (see below).

The real key to getting him to trigger a c/r with 77xx, KKxx, or a bluff is that sometimes in this same situation he checks it to you when he has an Ace (or some nut hand) and you minimum raise. Also, it's helpful if he knows that you are capable of laying down hands to him even if you think he is bluffing.

*********************

PokerStars Game #9803872390: Omaha Pot Limit ($2/$4) - 2007/05/07

Seat 1: WhooooKidd ($795.40 in chips)
Seat 2: Trolleur ($570.45 in chips)
Seat 3: wndertwinpwr ($458.10 in chips)

WhooooKidd: posts small blind $2
Trolleur: posts big blind $4

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Trolleur [8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]]
wndertwinpwr: folds
WhooooKidd: raises $8 to $12 (he was rasing quite liberally even without position and playing very aggro post flop)
Trolleur: calls $8

*** FLOP *** [8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]
WhooooKidd: bets $23
Trolleur: raises $23 to $46 (The min raise was a mistake. I meant to just call. A full reraise would be good too. However, once I did it, I thought that the minimum raise would show incredible strength, like maybe I have KK with flush draw. Although now that I think about it, with a lot of his range, the minimum raise puts him in an uncomfortable position.)

WhooooKidd: raises $115 to $161
Trolleur: calls $115

*** TURN *** 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

WhooooKidd: checks
Trolleur: bets $345
WhooooKidd: folds

[iggymcfly]

If he's donkish/overaggressive and you think there's a good chance that he's got something other than 77 here, than just call. It's way easier for someone to make a stupid bluff when you let them keep the betting lead.

If he's a pretty decent player and you put him solidly on 77, then yeah, just go ahead and reraise. The stacks are deep enough that you're going to have to raise him at some point to get it in and it looks less obvious that it's a better boat on the flop than it does on the turn or river. The min-raise does look kinda suspicious and I don't much like it here, but a raise slightly less than the size of the pot, say to $315 might be good.

[RoundTower]

I would usually call, based on your description a small raise makes sense though.

[TheRempel]

I think calling is really ugly with the stack sizes. It's going to be very hard to get his stack when he has 77.

[21SuicideKing21]

It's definitely player dependent, I would think a call would be good here especially if he has 77 and if the turn comes something low like a 2, then he will probably think you just have AAA and will probably push.