Maximizing Value with the Mortal Nuts

[TheRempel]

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BUt, a set would be more than happy to push all in against you and a foe who he assumes both have a flush, right? So push it all in on flop.

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Yeah most players would call a c/r all in with a set here all of the time.

The standard line I see most people taking here is c/c flop, c/c turn, VB river and call push but I think this is generally awful *especially* if you are up against top set and the nut flush, since one or the other won't be calling you by the river most times. Getting it in on the flop gets you all the money with two players drawing dead. Against players that can think a few levels higher you might have to vary your play a little more since they will know you either have a SF or a bluff.

A very similar situation is when you flop quads and your opponent has to have the under or overfull. I rarely see anyone lay down TTxx against a reraise on a JJT flop, but they will pitch it when the Q comes on the turn. Anytime I meet resistance when I flop that strong I am always gonna get as much money in on the flop as possible.

IMHO it is almost always better to fast play even the strongest of made hands in PLO because slowplaying will win usually win you big pots against the second nuts and very little against anything else, while fast play will win you a lot when your opponent thinks he is ahead or drawing live.

[TheRempel]

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I think betting the flop for like 1/2 pot or 1/3 pot is good here. Hopefully, you get some calls inbetween by smaller flushes, sets, or even str8s. Then the nutflush guy raises and you just call giving odds to anyone with a set (tho your 87 is kind of unfortunate for that). Then on the turn you check call unless theres only a little bit left then you can c/r ai. Then on the river donk your remaining stack into the guy.

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If I was the villain in the hand and flopped the nut flush, this is exactly the kind of line that would have me consider checking behind on the turn and either just calling or folding the river, especially since I doubt there are many hands you play this way.

[Troll_Inc]

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What is your best course of action to maximize your value here?

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I think this more depends on how he views your play.

If there's a >30% chance that he thinks you aren't very good and like to bluff, I full pot raise. He might be forced to call given your range (any flush, set, etc)

If he views you as a ABC player, calling probably is the best option. The board will most likely blank on the turn, and he will be forced to pot it again. Then you can try a min raise. I'd save the PSB for the river.

If you are playing as a good LAG, I would minimium raise which he could construe as having a set (or repping one) and trying to exert pot control if the board pairs then you could take the pot from him.

[piiop]

So you're saying the player having the 3rd nuts on the flop (and no redraws if he's behind) should be willing to get all in on the flop for 150+bbs?

But he should also check behind on the turn with the nutflush if someone bet/called the flop?

[TheRempel]

I'm not sure if you meant that to be directed at Troll or me.

If I get checkraised on this board with stacks this relatively shallow I am never folding the nut flush. OTOH, if someone takes a weird line that screams MILK when my hand is obvious, yeah I am definitely going to strongly consider checking behind on the turn and folding the river.

[iggymcfly]

If he's as ABC as you say he is, you have zero worry about him folding unless the board pairs. I'd just go ahead and repot here. Top set will be glad to get it in against two flushes (which is what he'll put you on) and other sets are unlikely here. The only worry is that a board pair will kill your action, so just make sure that the nut flush pays you off.

[CallYNotRaise06]

c/r flop. if hes abc, hes bet betting that flop w/o the AcXc.

[piiop]

Ok, let's say I am guy with J987 and you are guy with AAnut flush. (Not that we are either player, just so it's clear who I mean when I use "you" or "I")

You're saying if I checkraise the flop then you'll get all in for 150+bbs (not shallow, btw). (Realizing that you have the 3rd nuts without any way to improve if you're behind. And it's way unlikely anyone with K-flush would EVER do this.)

But if I bet the flop, you'll find that so suspicious that you'll check behind on the turn and might fold the river??

I think betting the flop is the best play by far. I can put you on AA due to your raise pf, but that doesn't mean you have the nutflush here so If I dont bet I risk getting it checked thru. If I bet the flop, I can possibly get small flushes to call as well as sets or two pair hands. Sure small flushes and two pairs will most likely fold when you raise, but thats more $$ in the pot for me that would've been completely shut out had I c/r'ed the flop.

So after I bet the flop, you would raise and I would just call to keep anyone else in. Then I would check to you on the turn and you'd bet allin basically and I would call and win. I have no idea how bet/calling the flop and checking the turn is so suspicious.


Even if we decide that AAnut flush man isn't folding the flop (which is fine, almost no one would), checking the flop in the first place still isn't the best play.

[Boredom]

If we lead and get raised by the preflop raiser, what does this do in terms of us getting calls from sets after that raise (before it gets back to us)? I think it lessens the chances that we get a call there. Also we don't even know the preflop raiser is very likely to have the nutflush, until he bets the flop. The checkraise line definitely will put more fear into the nutflush guy, but I don't think he ever folds anyway. However in the plus column, checkraising allows the pot to be huge back to anybody who just called the preflop raiser's bet (ie sets) and for them to close the action getting good odds on drawing. Therefore I think the checkraise line is actually better in this particular case.

*Edit* Actually the set person won't really be "closing" the action, but clearly looking at a better picture in terms of our commitment to the pot by the time we've checkraised. In my experience, top set (the most likely by far for someone to have) will optimistically put us both on calling hands he's drawing live against, one on the nutflush, the other on 2nd nutflush/lower set, and will go with us 3-way ai IF he's relatively sure a 3-way ai is reliable. IMO the checkraise makes this look much more likely than if we lead, get raised, and then he must call this raise unsure of if we're sweetening the pot.

[pete fabrizio]

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The standard line I see most people taking here is c/c flop, c/c turn, VB river and call push but I think this is generally awful *especially* if you are up against top set and the nut flush, since one or the other won't be calling you by the river most times.

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This is pretty much dead-on. You're stacking the ace-high regardless, and the people most likely to improve on the turn will usually stay in a multiway pot here anyway, so why risk losing either?

Btw, I prefer the check-raise, because this reasoning is best when opponents are strong enough that they give action on their own. The hands that are likely to check behind tend to be the ones that you're willing to slowplay against, and the hands that will bet/fold usually wouldn't have called your bet in the first place.