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  #11  
Old 11-15-2006, 03:30 PM
RoundTower RoundTower is offline
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Default Re: FT Hand vs Shortie: What is your play?

nh
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  #12  
Old 11-15-2006, 03:49 PM
Silent A Silent A is offline
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Default Re: FT Hand vs Shortie: What is your play?

[ QUOTE ]
And he's gonna check KQ twice, even when a flush draw shows up on the turn, when there is a huge call station?

There is very little chance he has any straight here. While you will occasionally run into shortstackers that make retarded slowplays, you can pretty much rule out KQ and Q8 given the double check so the only real concern is that he is currently chopping with some kind of redraw. It's much more likely that he has a set/two pair/air.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't the odds of a "retarded slowplay" go through the roof when the shortstacker is OOP? He may well be itching for a bet so that he can raise it all-in. Especially if he has a Q8 with a diamond redraw.

I find it difficult to imagine he tries this with air (unless air includes nut flush draw + gut-shot) or just 2 pair on that board.

But maybe that just says something about me, namely that I don't make this play (SB's turn check-raise) without a solid hand because it's so obvious that I should have bet a KQ by now.
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  #13  
Old 11-16-2006, 07:38 AM
BobAllinSki BobAllinSki is offline
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Default Re: FT Hand vs Shortie: What is your play?

Good post, on first impressions I thought this was an easy fold but your right, this looks more like a miss timed bluff, trying to represent making a straight when KQ allready had a straight, good call.
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  #14  
Old 11-16-2006, 05:45 PM
TheRempel TheRempel is offline
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Default Re: FT Hand vs Shortie: What is your play?

[ QUOTE ]

Don't the odds of a "retarded slowplay" go through the roof when the shortstacker is OOP? He may well be itching for a bet so that he can raise it all-in. Especially if he has a Q8 with a diamond redraw.


[/ QUOTE ]

And that is about the only hand that I was worried about, but I am sure if you run the numbers, based on the huge range of his possible holdings, Q8 or 78 with a diamond draw is not that likely.
A bare Q8 is never ever checking the turn unless he has major brain damage, so without adequate reason to believe the villain would make this play I ruled it out.

[ QUOTE ]

I find it difficult to imagine he tries this with air (unless air includes nut flush draw + gut-shot) or just 2 pair on that board.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well yeah I didn't mean air in the hold'em sense, mostly referring to any hand that is not beating a straight and has little chance of doing so.

As for results he had KJT3 with no diamonds and did not fill up.
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  #15  
Old 11-16-2006, 07:03 PM
Silent A Silent A is offline
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Default Re: FT Hand vs Shortie: What is your play?

Not to be results orientated, but what about the merits of SB's turn check-raise? Risking $70 to win $35 with very little backup on that board (if you have any reasonable hand/draw you almost have to call) strikes me as absolutely terrible. The key points being that this is a lousy way to try to represent a straight, especially the KQ, and his shortstack preventing him from firing again on the river.

What hand range do you think SB could have put you on that could make this play profitable? What hands would you have considered folding given your action so far?

I guess this is one of my weaker areas in PLO. I find it difficult to think that a good player would make this move, with this hand, in this spot. In your position I would be thinking, "is this guy as stupid as he seems?"

Am I correct that SB is spewing, or do I underestimate the aggression level of a typical good player?
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  #16  
Old 11-16-2006, 07:19 PM
TheRempel TheRempel is offline
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Default Re: FT Hand vs Shortie: What is your play?

No it's total spewing on his part and terrible play overall.

I might check a set, KQ or Q8 behind on that flop. With the call station in the hand I am not likely betting a hand that doesn't have a decent chance to win at showdown vs a random hand, so I'm checking almost everything else, though I would probably bet AKJT, AQJT or something similar. There are not that many hands I would bet/fold. The reason for the substantially less than pot bet is that I felt that it was very likely I had the best hand but was more concerned about the call station slowplaying than the shortstack. I bet enough to allow the shortstack to raise and feel he could push me out.

His thought process is simple "He can't have KQ because he checked the flop and bet pretty small on the turn. I should raise because he shouldn't call without KQ". Of course his play made his hand fairly transparent and I could call with a lot worse than KQ.

I don't have the hand history handy, but back in April or May, I called a reasonably tight player down in a 400BB pot with the ass end of a straight after he potted all three streets into me because he would not ever lead the flop with a straight. There was another hand I posted on shottakers a few months back with somewhat similar call on the river http://shottakers.blogspot.com/2006/...-new-lazy.html (scroll to the end of the post for the hand).

Most of these kinds of calls are based on simple deductions. I posted this pretty basic hand because I think a lot of people on this forum are very lazy in terms of actually reading opponents and play ABC omaha far too often.
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  #17  
Old 11-16-2006, 09:31 PM
MHP MHP is offline
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Default Re: FT Hand vs Shortie: What is your play?

My 2 cents. You'll go broke making these kind of calls over the long run. I'm also guilty of never believing anyone has a hand. Really the only hand your ahead of is a pure bluff. I think the only reason you called this is because your opponent is short stacked and you felt he was trying to take the pot away from you. I've made calls with worse, but if anything I would bet flop and bet the turn.
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  #18  
Old 11-16-2006, 09:42 PM
TheRempel TheRempel is offline
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Default Re: FT Hand vs Shortie: What is your play?

I fold a lot. When all of the information available to me indicates I should call, I call. If you want to play solely based on the strength of your hand, feel free.

If you bet the flop and turn you are getting none of the information but paying the same price.
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  #19  
Old 11-17-2006, 10:56 AM
jbird jbird is offline
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Default Re: FT Hand vs Shortie: What is your play?

nh.
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