NLTRN: Raising range vs. pre-flop limpers

[Somekid]

I'm curious about what kinds of hands people raise PF OOP against chronic limpers. I feel like I'm way too passive in these spots, allowing them to see loads of flops for cheap. Worse yet, I feel like a huge number of players in low-level SNGs almost never fold in position, preferring to limp like 70% of hands and raise the rest (or never raise).

Now I know it's sort of player dependent (range would be different vs. a player who never raises), but I'm curious what kind of range we should be raising PF. Also if you want to list your standard raise size here, it would be good. I generally raise to 4 BB.

As far as my range (I know it's nitty, I'm making this thread to help myself loosen up): A8+, KT+, 77+. The rest I'm just taking a free flop.

I'm guessing that I should be raising AXo here, but I'm not sure.

[sonneti]

Hmm been trying to explain what I usually do here but it depends on so many factors so I'll try to keep it short.

Normally I'll let them limp for the first 10-15 hands or so I can get some idea of how they will play when they hit or miss. I don't want to run over villan when the chips aren't worth anywhere near as much as late game. I also don't want him to stop limping and start becoming more aggressive.

Against the never folders we should just raise when we have a decent hand, generally I will raise JT, Q7s+, Q9+, any pair & A6+.

On the later streets if villan is tight & folding to c-bets then I will c-bet him to death every hand... if he's aggressive I'll try and trap him more with my made hands.

[Vinetou]

Don't want to go off the line here, but my biggest problem in those spots comes against guys who limp a lot and then they are prepared to call one barrell with a hand like king high on the flop, so I never know whether they are slowplaying or have a hand - if I should fire again or not - also against chronic floaters it is tough to play raised pots OOP. Chronic limpers usually suit that description. I guess Somekid has the same problem so he is making this thread. You experienced the same, Somekid? Against those guys it is awkward to raise A2 OOP even though it is ahead of their limping range. Especially in 25/50 raising OOP can be costly.

Good thread. That question bothers me too. The problem is that it is not just a mathematical question of range, but also depends on a villain's postflop play.

[Somekid]

Vinetou, I agree completely. My problem is that when I try to open up my raising range against these players, they float me a lot in position and also slowplay their big hands, so I have no idea what to do when I miss flops. check/folding seems pretty weak a lot of the time. And just checking most of the time OOP pre-flop seems too weak, as it lets them get away with limping things like 53o, etc.

Also, I mostly have this problem with very deep stacks. When stacks are more shallow like <17 BB or so, I'm probably going to be getting AI on the flop the times I do raise (and raising limpers OOP less).

EDIT: Changed 3-bet to raising limpers at the end...no idea why I put 3-bet.

[Vinetou]

OK, so I wasn't out of line. The same problem with me. You were talking about 3betting in your last post - isn't this thread about raising the limpers? 3betting is a total different beast.

[Somekid]

Yeah, sorry about that, that was a typo, I'll fix it. I meant to say raising a limper.

[Collin Moshman]

My range against a guy who is not limping super-narrow is much wider, essentially any hand that has any post-flop potential for when I'm called. Against a chronic limper who has any chance of folding to an OOP raise, I'll pop it as wide as:

45o+
34s+
57o+
69o+
7Jo+
Q2s+
Q5o+
22+
K2+

Risking 3 BB to win 2 BB gives you a good immediate investment on the steal, and your c-bet will often take it when you miss after showing strength pre-flop.

The time to tighten and raise limps strictly for value, IMO, is when your opponent is very loose (passive or aggro) and will rarely fold to a normal raise.

-- Collin