[LO8] Two Pair in HU-Pot

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
just assume unknown villians hence you have to base your decision wheter to play your hand or not entirely on position/cards. still no standard play?

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Olrik - We're talking about before the flop in the cut-off position after the action described by Jim, the opening poster. Right?

And I guess it has to be the first hand of the session against players who do not know us and who we do not know because we are assuming unknown Villains. (Or I guess we could simply say early in the session before we tentatively form any conclusions). Right?

And you want us to do the same thing every time, whatever our cards are????

(I want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly).

I'm not sure how to respond. It seems common-sensible to play some hands and fold others. However, it may not be obvious what hands should be played and what hands should be folded.

And for the hands we play, it seems common-sensible to limp with pulling hands and push with pushing hands. But it may not be obvious to us, let alone our opponents, which is which.

How will it be possible for anyone who has never seen us play and who does not know us to know what we are doing?

And if we're up against opponents who have seen us play, then presumably we have also seen them play. And then other factors other than whether we have a pulling or a pushing hand affect whether we limp or raise.

Buzz

[ QUOTE ]
i think wining 0.75 BB by just taking the blinds seems to be a good result.

[/ QUOTE ]And to me attempting to win only 0.75 big bets seems a waste of this fine starting hand. Moreover, when we miss a fit with the flop and would prefer to get out of a hand cheaply, having wasted an extra 0.50 big bet seems ill advised.

But don't misunderstand. I don't mind investing an extra 0.50 big bet before the flop with this fine starting hand. Indeed, I like having more money go into the pot - just so long as it doesn't push potential customers away or make them more wary or reticent when we make a nice connection with the flop.

The point is, this is a pulling hand! That doesn't mean I don't want to see money going into the pot on the first betting round! But at the same time, raising has certain ramifications. You don't just win more money from your opponents when you raise when you have an edge. You also lose more money when you lose and you also make your opponents more wary when you connect. The net you make on the hand is not necessarily affected positively when you raise before the flop with an edge (unless you get all your money in with a short stack).

[ QUOTE ]
while i understand the idea of pushing vs pulling hands (or at least i try to) i would argue that with everyone folding to us in late position we need some kind of standard action with any hand we want to play.

[/ QUOTE ]I disagree.

[ QUOTE ]
open limping the pullings hands and raising the pushing hands makes it easy for villians to read us

[/ QUOTE ]That's not what I am advocating. I keep writing that what I do, rightly or wrongly, depends as much or more on my opponents as on my cards. And that is what I keep meaning. I guess that must somehow not be clear to you - but I can't see how. I'm not being sarcastic or argumentative. I'm simply baffled.
[ QUOTE ]
(basicly like only raising with strong AA and A2 hands).

[/ QUOTE ]Limping with pulling hands and raising with pushing hands would be similar to that, but encompassing a much broader range than that. The pulling range is every single pulling hand we play. Similarly, the pushing range is every single pushing hand we play. And "only" does not apply. Depending on the opponents playing and watching, sometimes I'll raise with a pulling hand and sometimes I'll limp with a pushing hand.
[ QUOTE ]
assuming you follow my reasoning we are down to
a) openraising any hand we want to play
b) openlimp any hand we want to play
c) openlimp the pulling hands and fold playable pushing hands

[/ QUOTE ]Well... I thought I was following your reasoning, but I don't follow the logic in that last part.<ul type="square">• I'm not openraising any hand I want to play.
• I'm not openlimping any hand I want to play.
• I'm not openlimping the pulling hands and folding playable pushing hands.[/list]Instead I'm generally openlimping the pulling hands and openraising the pushing hands.
[ QUOTE ]
this might be holdem mentality but dont we open up our range in o8 depending on position too?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. The best course of action for any hand before the flop depends on position, who has acted, who is yet to act and what has transpired, both on the current deal and history of past deals and actions against these opponents.

Much of what to do before the flop in an Omaha-8 game seems relatively simple. However, some of what to do seems more complicated. Many times various factors other than the cards are involved in my decisions.

Buzz

[Big Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think wining 0.75 BB by just taking the blinds seems to be a good result.

[/ QUOTE ]And to me attempting to win only 0.75 big bets seems a waste of this fine starting hand. Moreover, when we miss a fit with the flop and would prefer to get out of a hand cheaply, having wasted an extra 0.50 big bet seems ill advised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Buzz, I don't know what you are missing here. Statistically, over the lifetime of your play, an A2 is worth less than the value of the blinds. Even a nice suited one. So if you could, every time, trade that A2 into the Poker Gods for both the blinds, no hassle, then you should so that, every time.

In general, in limit games with blinds, it is very rare that a hand is worth more than the blinds. In holdem, it is basically just AA and maybe KK (memory fails on KK.) I would suspect that in Omaha, it is basically just good AAs. And it won't be anywhere like as crushing as the holdem example.

Also, I'm not sure why we are all using that Capelletti nomenclature now. That book was so terrible I almost burnt it.

gl

bdd

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
any A2 is also worth about .5BB for me too. So winning the blinds is a good result.

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Big Dave - Are you raising before the flop every time you have an ace-deuce hand? My first reaction is, "No wonder 'any A2' is worth 0.50BB."

That wasn't a fair thing for me to write - but it was irresistible - and meant in good natured humor. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

This particular ace-deuce hand is a rather nice starting hand:
A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
True, I don't play on-line, and thus my perspective has to be different and not as good for this on-line game as that of somebody who does - but I still think this nice starting hand is worth more than 0.75 BB. I still think you want customers after the flop if you can figure out how to get them. I still think your goal should not be merely to steal the blinds.

I understand the First Commandment of Texas Hold 'Em Poker: Thou shalt play to win the blinds.

And I'm advocating breaking that Commandment.

In addition, I may seem to be breaking the First Commandment of Omaha-8: Thou shalt play to scoop.

But actually I'm not breaking that commandment. I still want to scoop with this hand if I can figure out how to do it and win more than a crummy 0.75BB! 0.75BB is only a tenth of a not particularly big pot. 0.75 is bait! We don't eat the bait. We catch big marlins with the bait. I admit they're likely to be scrawny marlins in this uber-tight game which doesn't look like a very good fishing ground to me. (But that's another topic).

I do see your point, Big Dave: [ QUOTE ]
I would probably limp first in with a lot of A2s, but probably not in the CO or BB and especially against tight players who are likely to pass.

[/ QUOTE ]Your reasoning does make sense to me. However, I'm still going to limp with this hand from the cut-off position, even in that tight game after five folds. I still want to play this 0.5 BB bait to try to win more than 0.75 BBs. Maybe the difference between our points of view is simply in playing styles. (And I'm certainly not saying my usual playing style would work better than yours in your games).

Buzz

Edit: the above was a reply to an earlier post of yours, not your latest. I need to read your latest again before possibly replying.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Statistically, over the lifetime of your play, an A2 is worth less than the value of the blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Dave - You have the data and I believe you. I'm not always enamored of hands containing A2.

[ QUOTE ]
Even a nice suited one.

[/ QUOTE ]This one is nice one. Not great, but nice.

[ QUOTE ]
So if you could, every time, trade that A2 into the Poker Gods for both the blinds, no hassle, then you should so that, every time.

[/ QUOTE ]But you cannot do that. And now the question is, how can you optimize your profit with this fine starting hand.

There are risks involved in both raising and limping. Raising has a greater risk of losing a potential customer (and also costs more up front). Limping has a greater risk of losing all or part of the pot and requires more card playing skill on later betting rounds.

[ QUOTE ]
In general, in limit games with blinds, it is very rare that a hand is worth more than the blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]I can see how you might interpret "to me attempting to win only 0.75 big bets seems a waste of this fine starting hand" to mean I think this hand is worth more than the blinds.

But that is not what it means.

There is a difference between collecting the blinds and attempting to win the blinds. Do you see the difference, now that I have pointed out there is one?

Assuming we do not fold, we are either
• (1) risking 1.00BB in an attempt (requiring less card playing skill to be successful) to win 0.75BB, or
• (2) risking 0.50BB in an attempt
(requiring more card playing skill to be successful) to win more than 0.75BB.

It's subtle, but hopefully you recognize that it's not a matter of trying to be more clever with words.<ul type="square"> "attempting to win only 0.75 big bets seems a waste of this fine starting hand" does not mean "this hand is worth more than the blinds."[/list]Buzz

[Big Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So if you could, every time, trade that A2 into the Poker Gods for both the blinds, no hassle, then you should so that, every time.

[/ QUOTE ]But you cannot do that. And now the question is, how can you optimize your profit with this fine starting hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well actually, as it happens, in this case you can. You can raise and win the blinds.

I'm not sure how much sense there is to get into this any more. I'm no huge fan of raising A2s regardless anyway. But your expressed initial sentiment was, I felt, a little misleading. And I still don't think we are seeing eye to eye on just how important winning the blinds uncontested actually is. Considering how low win rates are in general in limit games, typically a couple of big bets an hour or 1-2 big bets/100 hands, just winning the blinds is a mighty coup.

gl

bdd

[Buzz]

Hi Big Dave - I think it's fine to disagree. I appreciate, as always, your well expressed point of view.

[ QUOTE ]
But your expressed initial sentiment was, I felt, a little misleading.

[/ QUOTE ]I didn't mean it to be misleading. I agreed with your assessment (standard) - but then it seemed to me there might be a better way to play the hand.
[ QUOTE ]
And I still don't think we are seeing eye to eye on just how important winning the blinds uncontested actually is.

[/ QUOTE ]I agree that we're not seeing eye to eye on this issue. Not at all.

If we're going to win the blinds uncontested, we might as well be holding 2-2-2-2 as A-2-T-J with the ace suited to the deuce. It would feel good to me to win the blinds uncontested with 2-2-2-2. Even with A-2-7-8-rainbow it would feel good winning the blinds. But with A-2-T-J-(suited ace) it would feel disappointing to not get more. We might not be able to get more with the A2TJ hand, but I would want to give it a try.

To be honest, I think sometimes (holding this hand) we would have a better chance to win more with a pre-flop raise. For example, if I thought a pre-flop raise would get me heads-up with a buffoon in the small blind who would defend his small blind, then (holding this hand) I would advocate raising before the flop.

But that's not the impression I had here.

Buzz

[sweetjazz]

Dave, what you're missing is that you win 0.5 BB/hand with A2xx, that amount is not even distributed over your opponent's range. In fact, if your opponent's have two hands that they would fold to a blind steal, you're likely to make more than 0.5 BB on average for that particular deal of the cards. Coversely, those times one your opponent has a legimiately playable hand in the blind (or worse on the button), you'll win less than 0.5 BB on average.

That's not to say there is not an argument to be made for raising before the flop. But you can't simply use average data and use that to decide when to raise before the flop. You have to consider what hands will be folding to a raise (and whether you want them to), how much equity edge you will have when called, whether your hand plays better with the pot bigger or smaller, whether it plays better with or without the initiative.

[Big Dave D]

Sweet,

As I've said in the thread, I do understand the other views and I'm not a prolific raiser of A2 as it goes. But what I was countering was the prima facie view of Buzz that "your starting hand is worth more than three bucks in a $2/$4 game."

Now the average value is just one factor in decision making, however my point was, if you could enter into a Mike Caro Genie-like scenario and were offered 0.75BB for every A2 then you should take it.

gl

bdd

[1MoreFish4U]

Me: 510,000 hands of LO8
any A2: 30,441 hands
any A2 Win % 52.53
PFR any A2: 42.43%
BB/hand 0.34
[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Olrik]

and i thought i suck with those .4 BB [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]