how do they do it - Page 8

JaredL · #71 05-12-2007, 04:54 PM

I think for me at least pokerstars may be in on it. Pretty much every time I am pondering betting the turn versus inducing a bluff with my underpair or ace and check it he manages to hit his 4 or 7 on the river. When I decide to bet it he raises. So basically the opponent punishes me when I bet and the river punishes me when I don't.

vmacosta · #72 05-12-2007, 08:16 PM

Back when I thought semi-bluffing the turn was how to play good poker, I used to c/r with lots of gutshots here and frequently I'd fold to a 3-bet. I've bluff-capped the turn maybe twice in my life and I can't remember ever donk-bluffing the river after being 3-bet on the turn (though I've done it live a few times).

So against me this play might work.

However, I really don't like it on this paired board because all it takes is a courageous villain to "put you on an overpair" and then figure "you can't possibly call a 4-bet".

milesdyson · #73 05-12-2007, 08:31 PM

yeah im just going to stop it even tho i rarely ever do it anyway (maybe 5-10% of the time). my luck is bad so i shouldnt put myself in spots like that

PokerBob · #74 05-12-2007, 08:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls, 1 fold, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP calls, Button folds.

Turn: (4.16 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP calls.

River: (6.16 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

Final Pot: 6.16 BB

Results
Hero has 7c Tc (high card, king).
MP has 4d As (high card, ace).
Outcome: MP wins 6.16 BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

omg c/r that flop.

Heisenb3rg · #75 05-12-2007, 09:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
yeah im just going to stop it even tho i rarely ever do it anyway (maybe 5-10% of the time). my luck is bad so i shouldnt put myself in spots like that

[/ QUOTE ]

Think of it this way, they are often very marginal spots when you decide to do it.

Even if it is +EV it's probabily something like +0.05BB tops.
Often a clever/unqiue line nets you only slightly more than the ABC play, but if you misread the scenario can cost you 20x more than what you gained those other few times.

If you start 3-betting/folding too frequent because "no one ever 4-bet bluffs" you'll leave yourself suspectible to making brutal decisions when you're emotionally flustered.

That isn't to say don't do them, just be very very careful and only do it when you have strong reads. At the highest limits , noticing those non-standard plays that maxmize EV by inducing other players to make mistakes is what seperates the winners from the losers. At 3/6, 5/10, it's normally the people who make the least big -EV plays that come out ahead.

I would consider myself a "tricky" player by most TAG's standards and can occasionally figure out lines that own TAG's making them look silly. But I probabily lose even more than this by also doing it incorrectly when I misread the scenario or when im in a bad emotional state. Then I'm the one who looks silly.

ILOVEPOKER929 · #76 05-12-2007, 10:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls, 1 fold, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP calls, Button folds.

Turn: (4.16 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP calls.

River: (6.16 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

Final Pot: 6.16 BB

Results
Hero has 7c Tc (high card, king).
MP has 4d As (high card, ace).
Outcome: MP wins 6.16 BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

omg c/r that flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha, I was thinking the same thing when I saw this hand 3 days ago.

milesdyson · #77 05-13-2007, 05:13 PM

i usually check raise that flop, but i doubt it is much more +ev (if any) than donking. a flop donk often folds out both players, and a check raise never wins the pot on the flop and can only cost more than donking. i'm sure that me donking that flop 1 out of 5 has little to no effect on my winrate. ty though.

milesdyson · #78 05-15-2007, 07:11 PM

PM me with your email address if you'd love to review some of my hands from today.

justin · #79 05-16-2007, 03:43 AM

Im on a 650 BB slide or so since this (censored) poker stars promo and just wondering the same thing.