Getting levelled in 3 bet pots

Daddy Warbucks · #1 11-23-2007, 07:18 PM

This is probably going to make for a crappy thread, because its so situation/flow dependant, but maybe it'll generate some good theory discussion, here goes anyway.

Villain is a good aggressive regular, 19/16/5. He definitely understands bluff pushing in 3 bet pots and polarised ranges. Is this EVER a call? And with this is mind that a player can make these moves, does checking behind become optimal?

Party Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

MP: $328
CO: $172.45
BTN: $156.70
SB: $201
Hero (BB): $200
UTG: $175

Pre-Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
4 folds, SB raises to $8, Hero raises to $24, SB calls $16

Flop: ($48) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero bets $38, SB raises to $177 and is All-In, Hero folds

Results: $124 Pot

h_ven · #2 11-23-2007, 07:25 PM

Knowing that villain knows you are c-betting with air, I guess this could be a call sometimes, but I'll let better players discuss that.

Does checking behind become optimal?
If you don't c-bet this flop, and air comes on the turn, I believe this will give villain another chance to steal the pot from you. But, this will also keep the pot smaller giving villain less incentive to steal the pot on later streets.

If villain has a history to crai on boards like this, maybe checking behind would be the best line here, hoping to catch TPTK, or to check down a small pot.

BigPoppa · #3 11-23-2007, 08:17 PM

I check behind here a lot. Almost no one folds 99+ to one barrel and I'm not willing to bluff-shove the turn UI.

donkeykong2 · #4 11-23-2007, 08:21 PM

i dont think you can call this. you might check the flop, though i d only do that if he really is very aggressive and shoves over here very often. his raise is pretty big and if it s a bluff it has to work a large % of the time to make bet folding this hand exploitable.

Daddy Warbucks · #5 11-23-2007, 08:21 PM

His range is a lot wider than big pairs and AK. Its my range thats probably polarised.

Daddy Warbucks · #6 11-23-2007, 08:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i dont think you can call this. you might check the flop, though i d only do that if he really is very aggressive and shoves over here very often. his raise is pretty big and if it s a bluff it has to work a large % of the time to make bet folding this hand exploitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

This play is pretty standard for people who play a lot of 3 bet pots. It closes the action and folds out a good % of my range (hopefully). His range is probably any pair+, any draw and air.

Fonkey123 · #7 11-23-2007, 08:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
His range is a lot wider than big pairs and AK. Its my range thats probably polarised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, this is not meant to be mean at all, but this is completely wrong and the opposite is closer to being true than this.

If you 3 bet a lot you should have a lot of trash in your range, which you'll be cbetting often making it nowhere near polarized.

He probably isn't calling 3 bets very often, isn't probably check/raising marginal hands which makes it quite polarized.

If he's not check/raising mid pairs for value his range is either a set, or AA/KK/QQ which is very polarized. So essentially his range for calling a 3 bet and checkraising this flop is soooooooooooooooo much smaller than your range for 3betting and cbetting.

I think you seriously need to hire a decent game theoretical coach.

Daddy Warbucks · #8 11-23-2007, 08:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]

He probably isn't calling 3 bets very often, isn't probably check/raising marginal hands which makes it quite polarized.

If he's not check/raising mid pairs for value his range is either a set, or AA/KK/QQ which is very polarized. So essentially his range for calling a 3 bet and checkraising this flop is soooooooooooooooo much smaller than your range for 3betting and cbetting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I stated in the OP that this is very much not the case.

Daddy Warbucks · #9 11-23-2007, 08:37 PM

Also, i should say that we have no history together, but he probably datamines. This is why i say my range is polarised. I only know about his ability to bluff push through looking over hand histories.

manupod · #10 11-23-2007, 08:42 PM

I call here a lot, I think he's going to be drawing, or we have 6 outs to hit. We're never crushed, it's good for meta, etc. But I also think checking here is fine, too. But I don't do that very often since I wouldn't with big pairs on this type of board.