archived thread on 3 betting from sb

MichaelBolton777 · #1 11-22-2007, 04:50 PM

Hey, still pretty noobish to NL, so going through all the archived threads. Reading one now on 3 betting a solid button opener from the sb.

Question was what do you do w/ 22, 55, 88, kqo, j10s, and a6s. Then, which of these hands do you c-bet on a dry, ragged, ace hi flop? Seemed the majority wanted to 3 best most of these hands pre, and c-bet most flops. No one really provided any reasoning, though, for why (only 1/2 way through, though, so maybe this changes).

Here is a quote of Orange's thoughts (could have chosen anyone, but you are the moderator!):

"with the game i play in, i call 22/55/88 and 3-bet jts/kq/a6s (though calling can be acceptable).

on stars, i 3-bet nearly all, sometimes calling 88.

i bet all on the flop except 88/A6s.

edit: i was confused on the post."

orange, why do just call w/ the PP's, but are more inclined to 3 bet the others? fwiw, i think most wanted to 3 bet even the pairs as well. also, you said on stars you 3 bet- why?- tighter game, more folding equity? curious cuz im learning on the stars 200 game. as for the last part, why do you check your made hands? OP said something similar, and many wanted to check the one top pair hand. isn't this too transparent?

Would appreciate if some regular posters would chime in and tell me WHY (or why not) they are making these plays from the sb. I think aba20 said that he is inclined to often just call from the sb w/ weak pairs- is this correct? and in fitos' well, i think he suggested 3 betting A2-A5s, but folding like A6s-A9s, iirc. thoughts on aba and bobbo's plays?

last question: Assume the same hypo, except solid opener is utg. How do you play these hands now?

orange · #2 11-22-2007, 05:04 PM

i played at the AP games at the time (and still sortve do). the games on there are much more passive than say, FTP/stars. players are generally worse as well, and i can get away with making a few more plays/etc that would not work at FTP/stars against some of the better regs.

the AP games are an entirely different dynamic than others because of the 200bbs (and the weaker player base). on stars and the like, shallower (100bb stacks) makes 3-bet pots much easier to play (imo) because very rarely will you get to the river action. (ie. players will be AI on the turn in rr-ed pots). when playing 200bb stacks, you sortve want to exercise some sort of pot control when OOP and you can get away with calling more often than 3-betting (though 3-betting is also fine).

in the 100bb games, 3-betting pps and the like was fine for me, since you often are facing a TAG btn. you won't typically get paid in a regular raised pot if you just flat pf with pp and hit a set, you won't be the aggressor and you will often have to c/f many flops (debatable, you can obviously c/r alot as well). 3-betting allows you to take the intiative and disguise your hand a bit.

calling is obviously fine as well, its important to recognize your opponents though and see what they are capable of. you can also dump as well, if you don't think that either 3-betting or calling are profitable.

MichaelBolton777 · #3 11-22-2007, 05:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i played at the AP games at the time (and still sortve do). the games on there are much more passive than say, FTP/stars. players are generally worse as well, and i can get away with making a few more plays/etc that would not work at FTP/stars against some of the better regs.

the AP games are an entirely different dynamic than others because of the 200bbs (and the weaker player base). on stars and the like, shallower (100bb stacks) makes 3-bet pots much easier to play (imo) because very rarely will you get to the river action. (ie. players will be AI on the turn in rr-ed pots). when playing 200bb stacks, you sortve want to exercise some sort of pot control when OOP and you can get away with calling more often than 3-betting (though 3-betting is also fine).

in the 100bb games, 3-betting pps and the like was fine for me, since you often are facing a TAG btn. you won't typically get paid in a regular raised pot if you just flat pf with pp and hit a set, you won't be the aggressor and you will often have to c/f many flops (debatable, you can obviously c/r alot as well). 3-betting allows you to take the intiative and disguise your hand a bit.

calling is obviously fine as well, its important to recognize your opponents though and see what they are capable of. you can also dump as well, if you don't think that either 3-betting or calling are profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

cool, thanks orange. in what situations would you want to just dump pre? i assume against a tightish opener who is not likely to pay you off?

curious about aba20 as well- can anyone recall if he indeed advocated just calling usually w/ PP's in the sb?

Happy Thanksgiving!

MichaelBolton777 · #4 11-23-2007, 03:00 AM

dam, page 10 already- i just posted this morning. i cant believe how much traffic SSNL gets!

anyway, would love to hear more debate on sb play here at 1/2 NL v a button opener. aba, where are you!?

tubasteve · #5 11-23-2007, 04:49 AM

just fyi, you might wanna be careful reading the archives for stuff like this. the dynamics of the game have changed a lot since most of those posts were written.

orange · #6 11-23-2007, 05:33 AM

against tighter more straightfoward opponents you can lean more on calling pre w/pps. you can more often c/r flops and the like. i typically wouldnt ever dump pre with any pp. i would dump pf with A6s and JTs though.

MichaelBolton777 · #7 11-23-2007, 03:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
just fyi, you might wanna be careful reading the archives for stuff like this. the dynamics of the game have changed a lot since most of those posts were written.

[/ QUOTE ]

ya, that's what i was thinking as well. kind of why i posted! to see what good players would do today.

MichaelBolton777 · #8 11-23-2007, 03:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
against tighter more straightfoward opponents you can lean more on calling pre w/pps. you can more often c/r flops and the like. i typically wouldnt ever dump pre with any pp. i would dump pf with A6s and JTs though.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, i like the idea of calling, check raising sometimes (what is a good frequency here?) against a tight stealer. is this better, though, than simply 3 betting and c-betting, when the straightforward tag will almost always fold if he misses? also, when you do flop a set, maybe you will get more action in the bigger, 3 bet pot when villain flops a top pairish hand (not sure if this is true)?

MichaelBolton777 · #9 11-23-2007, 03:43 PM

Okay....

So Aba plays several weeks against farha, and goes broke (lololLOLOLOLlolol). He returns to 1/2 NL, and starts posting again in SSNL. He sees my thread and responds. What does he do w/ 22, 55, 88, j10s, kqo, and a6s (and why)?? ABA COME BACK!!!!!!! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

pp262 · #10 11-23-2007, 03:54 PM

How often you can coldcall also depends on the BB. If BB squeezes a lot calling will be less attractive.

With the hands you listed I wouldn't ALWAYS do one thing. If you always 3bet small pp's from the sb and never flatcall with them your checkraises on low flops aren't going to be believable versus thinking players you have history with.

If villain is calling your 3bets very often and shoves over your cbets lightly then folding the low pp's is probably best.

Of the hands you listed I'd be most inclined to 3bet the pp's and JTs and most inclined to fold A6s.

With 100BB stacks 3betting KQo is fine too but with deeper stacks it plays pretty bad oop in a 3bet pot so calling is often better then imo.