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#1
10-16-2007, 02:39 PM
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An Out-of-Turn Call Becomes a Raise (NLHE)
Some time ago, I was involved in a hand where a ruling was made that I'm not so sure was correct.
Here's the situation: I take a flop 3-handed with T9 in an average 1/2 NL game. Both stacks cover and effective stacks are about 250. The flop comes down something like A-7-6 rainbow. I'm second to act. The first player pays off with any decent pair and bets out like $15. I hesitate for a moment and take a cursory glance at the button because the button is a somewhat unpredictable player that is known to make some outlandishly huge raises. I decide to fold based on this player's history of doing just that. The actual delay is no more than a second and a half or so, but, before I can act, the button flat calls the $15. Knowing that the first player likely has an Ace and pays off big, I decide to call since I now know that I'm going to see a potential payday card on the turn for just $15. I call and the button says, "My bad" and takes back his out-of-turn call. He then proceeds to raise to like $75. Now, you can see why I would be less than happy. I would have saved the $15 if the button had not called out of turn. I would have gotten to see the turn and had an opportunity for a big payoff had the button not "revoked" his call and turn it into a raise. So, I got the worst of both worlds here. I'm more than a little disgusted and I call for the floor. The floor rules that since the button's call was out-of-turn, that he wasn't committed and still had the opportunity to raise. I argue that he is verbally bound to no avail. I further accuse the button of shooting angles. Button apologizes to me like 15 minutes later and says that he didn't realize that I was in the hand and that he decided to raise on the basis that I was in the pot and likely drawing (a correct assumption). I accept because it really does me no good to keep arguing about it and the amount was trivial in the scheme of things. First, was the floor's ruling correct (as generally applied)? Second, if the ruling was correct, were the button's actions (if he "purposefully" called out-of-turn) ethical? 
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#2
10-16-2007, 02:51 PM
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Re: An Out-of-Turn Call Becomes a Raise (NLHE)
This depends on house rules.
Personally i prefer a rule that his action is not binding, after all you weren't entitle dto know what he was going to do, so i don't your complaint that you were fooled into believing he was going to call has any merit.
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#4
10-16-2007, 03:38 PM
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Re: An Out-of-Turn Call Becomes a Raise (NLHE)
[ QUOTE ]
that he didn't realize that I was in the hand and that he decided to raise on the basis that I was in the pot and likely drawing (a correct assumption). [/ QUOTE ] The answer is in here If it is determined this isn't true that he was shooting an angle he needs to be shown the door. If this is true he gets to act on his hand now that he knows you are in because it is clear he didn't know you were in before.
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#5
10-16-2007, 03:40 PM
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Re: An Out-of-Turn Call Becomes a Raise (NLHE)
[ QUOTE ]
On the flip side, what if instead of calling you raise to $75. By your position, should his $15 stay in? Should he be forced to match your raise? [/ QUOTE ] No, he gets his $15 back and can now act on his hand. BTW psandman's post isn't just a "position" is how everyone floor person that understands poker treats this sort of thing.
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#6
10-16-2007, 06:23 PM
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Re: An Out-of-Turn Call Becomes a Raise (NLHE)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] On the flip side, what if instead of calling you raise to $75. By your position, should his $15 stay in? Should he be forced to match your raise? [/ QUOTE ] No, he gets his $15 back and can now act on his hand. BTW psandman's post isn't just a "position" is how everyone floor person that understands poker treats this sort of thing. [/ QUOTE ] Unfortunately this isn't true. I have seen far to many rooms with the rule that would not allow the player to raise (my room would not allow this player to raise). Even floor people who understand and agree with me find themselves hampered by rules made by managers who accommodate nits.
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#7
10-16-2007, 06:52 PM
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Re: An Out-of-Turn Call Becomes a Raise (NLHE)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] On the flip side, what if instead of calling you raise to $75. By your position, should his $15 stay in? Should he be forced to match your raise? [/ QUOTE ] No, he gets his $15 back and can now act on his hand. BTW psandman's post isn't just a "position" is how everyone floor person that understands poker treats this sort of thing. [/ QUOTE ] Unfortunately this isn't true. I have seen far to many rooms with the rule that would not allow the player to raise (my room would not allow this player to raise). Even floor people who understand and agree with me find themselves hampered by rules made by managers who accommodate nits. [/ QUOTE ] I should have clarified. Any floorperson that understands poker and hasn't had a manager dictate that they make wrong decisions would allow this player to withdraw his $15.
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#8
10-16-2007, 06:54 PM
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Re: An Out-of-Turn Call Becomes a Raise (NLHE)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] On the flip side, what if instead of calling you raise to $75. By your position, should his $15 stay in? Should he be forced to match your raise? [/ QUOTE ] No, he gets his $15 back and can now act on his hand. BTW psandman's post isn't just a "position" is how everyone floor person that understands poker treats this sort of thing. [/ QUOTE ] Unfortunately this isn't true. I have seen far to many rooms with the rule that would not allow the player to raise (my room would not allow this player to raise). Even floor people who understand and agree with me find themselves hampered by rules made by managers who accommodate nits. [/ QUOTE ] I should have clarified. Any floorperson that understands poker and hasn't had a manager dictate that they make wrong decisions would allow this player to withdraw his $15. [/ QUOTE ] At least in Vegas you have now whittled it down to a small field.
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#9
10-16-2007, 07:09 PM
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Re: An Out-of-Turn Call Becomes a Raise (NLHE)
[ QUOTE ]
At least in Vegas you have now whittled it down to a small field. [/ QUOTE ] Sad thing, is QFT 100%. But Vegas is the MECCA of poker, or that's what all the poker TV shows would lead you to believe. Everyone else takes a backseat now.
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#10
10-16-2007, 07:29 PM
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Re: An Out-of-Turn Call Becomes a Raise (NLHE)
A number of places enforce a rule where If the out-of-turn action is still possible in relation to any action before the out-of-turn action was attempted, then the out-of-turn player is held to that action (check/call/raise). So if he can still call the same amount ($15,) he is held to that. If he meant to raise the original bet, then he is still held to that. But not if the 2nd player action included a raise, then he doesn't have to raise.
It seems a fair rule as long as it is applied consistently - which is what I've seen in AC. Not being held also works too - again as long as it's consistently applied. The "what if OP raises to $75, does button still have to call $15" is a stupid apples to oranges scenario/question.
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